Israel Keyes Interview, November 29, 2012

Israel Keyes is believed to have committed multiple kidnappings and murders across the country between 2001 and March 2012. This is an interview investigators conducted with Keyes following his arrest in March 2012.

Video Transcript

BELL - Officer Jeff Bell, Anchorage Police Department

GOEDEN - Special Agent Jolene Goeden, FBI

RUSSO - Assistant U.S. Attorney, Frank Russo

FELDIS - Assistant U.S. Attorney, Kevin Feldis

KEYES - Israel Keyes

BELL (Chuckles). They’re upgrades though up – probably.


BELL Those other ones are really old.


GOEDEN Sorry about that.

BELL All right we – we – we came in, we’re just gonna start by advising you. Giving you your Miranda Rights.

KEYES All right.

BELL And then, um, you have the right to remain silent. You understand that?


BELL Okay. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Do you understand that?


BELL You have the right to talk to a lawyer and have him present with you while you are being questioned. Do you understand that?


BELL If you can not afford to hire a lawyer one will be appointed to represent you before and during any questioning if you wish. Do you understand that?


BELL You can decide at any time to exercise these rights and not answer any questions or make any statements. Do you understand that?


BELL Okay, um, having these rights in mind you wanna talk to us today?


BELL Okay. We, uh, we just wanted to get that outta the way. RICH is on his way over.



GOEDEN This is the email that RICH sent over yesterday.


KEYES Oh, all right.

BELL So he is on his way. Anything – you want anything while we’re waiting? He shouldn’t be but a few minutes.


BELL But we could get you something to....

KEYES No, no I’m good.

GOEDEN Something to eat?

KEYES No I’m fine.

BELL Candy bar? Nothing like that?

KEYES (Chuckles) no.

GOEDEN Done with the newspaper already?

BELL Did you – what did you do? Swear off those candy bars? It’s in the....

KEYES Yeah, it’s....

BELL It’s in the fridge. I don’t know if it’s – I’m telling ya I’m gonna eat it.

KEYES (Chuckles).

BELL So anyhow we’ll be back out over here when, uh....

KEYES All right.

BELL ....RICH get’s here all right?

KEYES I won’t go anywhere.

BELL Promise?





KEYES Scare off my own lawyer huh?

BELL (Chuckles).

RUSSO (Chuckles).

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

FELDIS How are you doing today ISRAEL?

KEYES All right.

FELDIS All right good. Hey just before we start I know these guys read you your rights earlier.


FELDIS Okay, um, and then, uh, you were just meeting, uh, privately with Rich CURTNER your, uh....


FELDIS And RICH just came out and indicated that, um, uh, you did not want him to be present today.

KEYES Correct.

FELDIS Okay so again I wanna make sure we go we have those accountable, RICH told me that you indicated that you did not want him present today. And so we will, uh, take you at your word on that and if at any time you would like us to call RICH back or any other attorney to be stand by counsel, uh, please let us know, okay?

KEYES All right.

FELDIS Uh, we’re – we’re only gonna be talking about things unrelated to the Samantha KOENIG case today. Do you understand that?

KEYES Understood. Yes.

FELDIS All right and, uh, obviously, uh, without your attorneys present in the KOENIG case we wont be able to talk about anything related to that case and if – if you start to talk about it, you know, we’re gonna have to stop, uh....

KEYES Right.

FELDIS ....the interview, okay?


FELDIS All right, um, that’s been sitting in the refrigerator….

KEYES I’m not eating that.

KEYES (Chuckles).

FELDIS ....for the, uh....

KEYES Than – thank you but....

BELL (Chuckles).

FELDIS Well here’s the – here’s the thing the FBI’s been cleaning out the refrigerator.

BELL (Chuckles).

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

KEYES Keep for a hundred years or something.

GOEDEN Like a Twinkie.

KEYES Yeah, exactly.

BELL (Chuckles).

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

FELDIS All right, um, so talking about other crimes, um, uh, you know, we – we wanted to kinda pick up where we left off on some things. Uh, give you any information that, uh, you might be thinking about over the last few weeks.

KEYES Right.

FELDIS Um, related to that and, uh, I think we had some updates, uh, on the New York search.


FELDIS Things like that so why don’t – why don’t we start there?

GOEDEN Okay, and I – and also the – the live feed I wanted....


GOEDEN ....jump into that ‘cause I know, um, we came over on Tuesday.

BELL Tuesday.

GOEDEN Um, we had it set up – we had a couple guys up in Tupper Lake, um....

KEYES Oh (chuckles).

GOEDEN To – to go over the bank....

KEYES (Chuckles).

GOEDEN To go over the bank rob – yeah, bit of a drive.

BELL It was a three hour drive.

KEYES (Chuckles).

GOEDEN From where they were at, um....

KEYES Now in all fairness I never set up a specific day. But it actually would a worked because my attorney didn’t show up ‘til that afternoon anyway.

RUSSO Well....

GOEDEN All right well it didn’t work that day, um....


GOEDEN But we, uh, we had hoped to have it set up today since we – when we thought you were – it was gonna work for today but Albany had some other stuff come up. But I have to say it was pretty cool. We tested it and the way that – just so you have an idea of what it looks like and what to expect.

KEYES Mm-hm.

GOEDEN ‘Cause we’ll try to set something up for next week. Um, but we did two laptops. One of ‘em was, uh – uh, essentially like a tracker so you had an over – an overhead GPS.


GOEDEN Google map kinda view.

KEYES Right.

GOEDEN And then the other one was a live feed actually from the camera. And then the plan – we had speakerphone so then you can say, you know, go right here, go left here. And our plan was just to use – ‘cause Tupper Lake’s a little more remote than doing it in a city. We wanted to, um, use Tupper Lake and just talk about the bank robbery because that was....

BELL Make sure we had cell reception or where ever the – however they’re getting the signal.

GOEDEN And how – yeah, and how it’s gonna ping. ‘Cause depending on where they – where they’re at they have to use – sometimes they’ll use satellite, sometimes they’ll use different type of things in order to bring the....

KEYES Wow, fancy.

GOEDEN It’s kinda CSI ish.

BELL And I assume some of these places we’re gonna go are....


BELL ....gonna be cell phone only.

GOEDEN (Chuckles) if that.

KEYES Finally living up to peoples expectations.

BELL Well....

KEYES All those CSI shows. (Chuckles).

FELDIS They still can’t usually get the things solved in twenty minutes.

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

BELL Right.

KEYES Really?

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

BELL It’s an hour show but....

RUSSO I’m picturing the Google earth car driving around.

GOEDEN Yeah (chuckles).

RUSSO You know, that thing with....

KEYES Right. Yeah, you guys should get one of those.

RUSSO (Chuckles).

GOEDEN So we’d like to still do that.


GOEDEN Um, and I don’t – I don’t have a day yet. I don’t know a specific day.

KEYES Is there snow there yet?


KEYES Probably is right?

GOEDEN There wasn’t – if there – there wasn’t much. I mean it wasn’t something....

RUSSO Pretty warm. East coast.

BELL But typically the morning works for you right? Because that’s four – the four hour time difference.

KEYES Typically.

BELL We – if we can get that....


BELL ....they just kinda are wanting – don’t wanna drive three hours again and maybe we could just do it in Albany or (chuckles).....

KEYES (Chuckles).

BELL But we thought the memory lane trip to, uh, Tupper Lake would be more interesting maybe for....


BELL ....both of us.

KEYES Yeah, well I – I spent a lot of time in Tupper Lake so (chuckles).

GOEDEN All right.

KEYES I’m sure we can find our way over.

RUSSO (Chuckles).

BELL (Chuckles).

GOEDEN All right well we’ll work on....

FELDIS So you’re thinking next week?

GOEDEN Yeah, I – I don’t have a specific day yet but we’ll work on setting up a date next week and we’ll do it, um, like we did this time, early enough that if you’ve got other stuff, um....

KEYES Right.

GOEDEN We’ll try not to....


GOEDEN ....make a conflict with that so that we can get you back there by mid morning even.

KEYES Right.

GOEDEN All right.

KEYES Yeah, I didn’t realize you guys went… went all out a..

BELL (Chuckles).

KEYES You didn’t mention that when you came in....

BELL Uh, yeah I did mention that. You didn’t – you weren’t in a – you weren’t receptive.

FELDIS Well look that’s all right it’s your – it’s your decision but we just wanna let you know they’re gonna set it up next week and it’ll be your choice whether to come over or not but they’re probably not gonna set – keep – you know, they – they’re only able to do this, uh....

BELL We’ll do it again.

KEYES Yeah. Gas is expensive. You guys are on a budget and so.

RUSSO Tupper Lake is probably a good – still a good location though?


GOEDEN Uh, and the other thing was New York stuff. Show you what they took from the property in New York?

KEYES All right.

GOEDEN Show you that. This was the – this is the list of what it is. Some of it’s pretty, you know, kinda generic in terms of the description of what it is – real but I’ll show you the old property.

KEYES Wow. You guys are going way back now.

BELL (Chuckles).

GOEDEN What stuff?

KEYES Oh just all this stuff. Anything from New York you’re going way back.

GOEDEN When’s the last time you were there?

KEYES Oh I was there just a year or so ago. But living there I haven’t been there since....

BELL Yeah. You went....

GOEDEN You haven’t like stayed there in a....

BELL You went by there in....

KEYES Just to spend....

BELL In 2011 during the – the CURRIER time?

KEYES Oh yeah – yeah. Every time I’m back there I go by....


KEYES ....but I – I mean all the stuff that’s there is – this is like childhood memories (chuckles).

RUSSO Did you – so you lived there for a period of time?


RUSSO How long?

KEYES Little less than a year.

BELL Yeah, seven eight months in ‘97 I think right?

KEYES Yeah, ‘97 I think.

GOEDEN Does it look the same?

KEYES I’m surprised the roof is still there.

GOEDEN There’s a lot of, uh, on one side it’s missing a lot of shingles. I don’t know which of these pictures will show it good but....

KEYES Yeah, I thought – last time I was there I thought the roof was falling in on one spot.

GOEDEN But here’s some other pictures. And apparently the basement – well I got some pictures – the basements got quite a bit of water in it. Oh here you can see it better.

KEYES That’s a indoor swimming pool.

GOEDEN Yeah, you can see it there.

BELL That high ground water?

KEYES Yeah – yeah.

GOEDEN So this is the main – this is the main house? ‘Cause there’s a bunch of buildings.

GOEDEN A few buildings on the property.

KEYES There was like an old garage and a old shed, yeah.

GOEDEN Okay. And then here’s the indoor swimming pool. I think in one of these pictures you can sss – maybe it’s this one or maybe it’s just the angle, one of the support beams are....


GOEDEN Is coming down and so it’s not super stable.

KEYES Surprised they were able to get down there.

GOEDEN That was through the window.


GOEDEN They came down – put a ladder down through the window.


GOEDEN And went down that way.

KEYES Yeah, those stairs were pretty safe.

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

KEYES (Chuckles).

GOEDEN Is that the kitchen, of the main house?


GOEDEN That’s kinda what I gathered. That’s another one of that.


GOEDEN Have there been other people staying there that you know of? Is that what all this stuff is from? This is a close up of that. Or is that how it was when you were there?

KEYES Last time I was there it looked like there had been hunters or campers hanging out in there.

GOEDEN Just spent some time there?


GOEDEN Okay. ‘Cause there was – there was a mattress on one of these floors too. It’s not in these pictures. It might be just off there’s a side here there’s a mattress in the kitchen area.

KEYES Yea, uh huh.

GOEDEN And then, what building is that?

KEYES That’s the garage.

GOEDEN Sounds like people pics.

GOEDEN We have that one?


GOEDEN ‘Cause there was no running water?

KEYES There was, yeah, there was an indoor bathroom too.

GOEDEN Oh there was? Okay. And then you got a third building?


GOEDEN Did you guys have animals there at one point? Not like dogs and cats....


GOEDEN ....but like animals in one of these?

KEYES There were cows there, yeah.

GOEDEN What was like a barn?


GOEDEN Okay, that’s what they said it had looked like it had been ‘cause there was some hay or straw and stuff still.

KEYES Mm-hm.

GOEDEN Still around. Um, this was a box – let me find that first sheet. There was a receipt on there. You can’t really see it in the, uh, picture but there was an invoice for some gun – for some guns and ammo back in 1994 on top. Do you remember what that was for?

KEYES Mm-mm. I recognize some of those books vaguely but it’s been a while since I been through that so....

GOEDEN Did you have a place out there that you’d go to buy guns?

KEYES No, not in New York. I never bought guns officially I was always under the table.

GOEDEN Okay. We’ll get the invoice ‘cause they said the invoice was in your name in March of eight – of ‘94.

KEYES Hm, that had a gun on it?

BELL Three th – yeah, March.

GOEDEN That’s what I thought. I – I thought it had a gun on it. That was my interpretation but I’ll – I’ll have ‘em send up the invoice so we can look at it.


GOEDEN But – bunch of maps, are those yours?


GOEDEN Anything we should be looking for?

KEYES Before the days of computers.

BELL Any X’s on ‘em anywhere or anything?


GOEDEN Anything we should be looking for?

KEYES Put X’s on my maps.

BELL (Chuckles).

RUSSO Highlighting. It’s just highlighting.

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

KEYES I don’t highlight maps either.

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

KEYES The only map you found that had highlighting on it I didn’t do the highlighting so....

FELDIS Who did the highlighting on that one?

KEYES I don’t know. I just found that map around the house.

BELL (Chuckles).

FELDIS What about the – the map that when you were....

BELL I think there was one in the car that was highlighted.

KEYES When I was arrested, yeah.


KEYES Yeah, but I didn’t do the highlighting. That’s all I’m saying. (Chuckles) I know that’s what they were thinking on this one.

GOEDEN Well it was the interstate that was highlighted and....

KEYES Right.

GOEDEN don’t really seem to be an interstate kinda person.

KEYES No that’s just point A to point B kind of thing.

GOEDEN Couple other things. There was a mattress out in the woods.


GOEDEN Do you know what that was from?


GOEDEN There was some clothes under it. There was some women’s clothes under it.

KEYES I – I mean you’re not gonna find anything relevant on that property.

GOEDEN ‘Kay. Well that’s a picture of the clothes actually. They were u – they were underneath it.

KEYES Kinky.

GOEDEN And then this was a photo from the fire pit area behind the house, um....

KEYES Oh, yeah.

GOEDEN It’s a ring. Looks like a men’s ring. And those are some like beads from a necklace.

KEYES Huh. Yeah, I – I haven’t burned anything in that pit for a long time so.

GOEDEN Was any....

KEYES Any – any – anything that you found in there is probably from hunters or somebody who was camping there. I mean there hasn’t been a – I put a gate across the road, uh, as soon as my folks moved out of that place but it only stayed up for a year or two and then hunters cut it down and they just....

BELL What are they hunting? What – what’s there?

KEYES Uh, white tail.

BELL Deer? White tail.

GOEDEN Was there ever a time that you burned anything of significance in that fire pit?

KEYES No. Not of great significance.

GOEDEN Anything related to crimes?

KEYES Possibly but nothing – this is all ancient.

GOEDEN Nothing like this?

KEYES Yeah – no. That’s – this is all ancient history stuff.


KEYES That’s just before I – I mean I haven’t really spent much time there ever since I was in the army so....

GOEDEN Okay, so this – this isn’t gonna be a ring to somebody that we need to be worried about?


GOEDEN All right, um, I think the rest of these were – these are all just duplicates of some of those. Do you have any questions about this stuff? We’re gonna get all of this up here and so once we get it up here we can pull it out. Like I – we’ll grab this stuff to see what that is. What the invoice is.


GOEDEN Some of this other stuff. That was a little interesting. Um....

KEYES (Chuckles).

GOEDEN What’s all this other stuff?

KEYES (Chuckles).

GOEDEN Do you know whose that belonged to?

BELL (Chuckles).

KEYES (Chuckles). Uh, yeah.

BELL (Chuckles).

GOEDEN We’ll bring it in when we get it.


GOEDEN Um, so I think that – anything about this....

BELL You said trip down memory lane.


BELL There it was.

KEYES Well....

GOEDEN Okay, anything....

KEYES I didn’t even realize I still had anything in that. Like I’m....

GOEDEN Yeah, there was quite a bit.

KEYES I’m guessing all that stuff was in the garage or something or....

GOEDEN Um, it was – it was spread out. I think the box was in the garage. I don’t remember where some of the other – like the rope, you know, some of the other specific stuff. But I know the box – pretty sure the box was in the garage.


GOEDEN And I… then I think, uh, we can jump into this. Quick to I had this stuff laid out to show ya, um, does this place look familiar?


GOEDEN I think we – we maybe even showed you these before. I don’t know if we did or not.

KEYES No I saw the ones of the gun.

GOEDEN Okay, yeah, these were....

KEYES Was that as they found it?

GOEDEN Yeah. They might of pulled something away.

BELL Just so you could see where....


BELL About where it was.


KEYES I was gonna – I was gonna say I thought I kinda camouflaged it but....

GOEDEN Yeah, that was – so like walking up on you couldn’t see it.


GOEDEN Um, we got a, report – we got all this stuff, sent it into the lab. That’s what we do with everything that we get and, uh, on the tray that holds the ammo in there – there’s a perfect right thumb print for Israel KEYES.

KEYES Yeah, right.

GOEDEN No there is. I don’t have the lab report back.

KEYES (Chuckles) wow.

BELL Uh-oh.

GOEDEN So more CSI stuff.

KEYES Yeah, I’m impressed. Well, I’m disappointed in myself mostly but I’m still....

BELL (Chuckles).

RUSSO (Chuckles).

GOEDEN The lab examiner called me. I don’t have the report yet, when I get the report though I will show you the report but I’m not B-S ing ya. I really – it was on one of these two on the plastic tray inside.

KEYES Huh. Plastic tray huh?

BELL Like these – this must be the plastic like a bottom view.


BELL Or the top view of it.


BELL Slides into that cardboard sleeve.


KEYES Well I was kind of in a hurry I guess. Whatever. I’m too lazy to even dig a hole for that one just piled rocks on top of it (chuckles).

FELDIS Were you planning on going back to it?

KEYES Yeah, this summer. I would have had (chuckles) – that woulda been a good trip (chuckles). I – I still can’t get over the whole – the disappeared house in Vermont thing. (Chuckles).

BELL You had big plans for this summer, back there?

KEYES Well I, you know, I was gonna go back there. I just pictured driving up looking everywhere for that farmhouse and not being able to find it.

BELL (Chuckles) to burn it down?

KEYES Yeah, that woulda been fun. Whatever, you guys did that for me.

GOEDEN All right.

RUSSO Speaking of Vermont.

FELDIS Yeah, speaking of Vermont. We were talking to, uh, Vermont on Monday and they want to know what’s going on. And they are interested in filing charges as they have been all along. So....

KEYES What? Federal?

FELDIS Well, you know.

KEYES You don’t know?

FELDIS No – no I mean I – we talked to both the state and federal prosecutors on Monday and we want to know what we should tell them from your perspective ISRAEL.

KEYES Well it’s a little hard to talk about the general over – my general overall perspective right now for obvious reasons so....

FELDIS Well just tell us your perspective. I – I understand that and we’re not gonna do that but we’re gonna – we are interested in your perspective on the CURRIER murders because that’s what they’re interested in right? And....

RUSSO They’re, yeah, they’re also interested in, you know, you’re cooperation on other crimes and where that stands and whether you intend to follow through on some of that and so that’s the kinda thing, you know, that they’re looking for from us.

KEYES Well like I’ve said all along my cooperation on other crimes is dependent on what’s going on with, uh, crimes that I’m already charged with so – and I’ve said that all along.

RUSSO Mm-hm.

KEYES As far as, um, (BRIEF SILENCE) I’m loosing interest in the legal process I guess you could say (chuckles).

FELDIS Mm-hm. Well you’ve known and we’ve been, you know, we’ve – we’ve talked about this quite a bit that Vermont is willing to be patient if they think that there’s forward momentum on solving other crimes, you know? And I know that you don’t care about that from the perspective of the families of other victims but Vermont does and so there’s a way to meet in the middle by giving something that they can then have to know. They don’t need to know the details of it but they need to know we’ve gotten some details so that they can continue to hold off.

KEYES I just don’t understand why, um, even from a legal perspective I don’t understand what the hurry is or what their issue is as to why they wanna file charges – additional charges when I’m clearly already charged with substantial ones.

FELDIS Well in – in Vermont you’ve got state prosecutors who right now have an unsolved, you know, according to the public unsolved murder of, uh, the CURRIER’s right? So the law enforcement is under a lot of pressure.

RUSSO They get calls from the press. They’re – they’re telling us every week, you know, it’s a little different state prosecutors are elected so I think they probably feel more of a obligation to, you know, inform the – the public than, you know, people who are appointed or lifetime prosecutors.

KEYES Right. But, uh, since they’ve called off the search for the bodies as far as the public knows they can’t even definitively say that it was a homicide. I know they already told everybody it was.

FELDIS But they know that. Vermont knows that.

KEYES They know – right. They know....

FELDIS So Vermont as you – lets just be really realistic approach to it, if you’re the state prosecutor in Vermont, you know, you want ‘em to come out and say, hey here are the charges. We’ve got – we’ve got the guy, case solved. That’s what you wanna do.

KEYES Right.

FELDIS So you need to give them a reason to say don’t do that.

BELL If you don’t want ‘em to do that. You know if that’s the....

KEYES Well like I say my perspective at this point is they’re asking for a reason – for me to give them a reason not to do that and I have no reason to suspect that – at this point that any information and any further information I give is gonna be used or portrayed to the media in the way that I’m told it will be, or wont be. Just because that’s the way it’s played out so far. So if they’re saying – I – I guess what I’m saying is from perspective at this point it’s a one way street and initially I thought there were ways that I could manipulate the situation, this case, all the related cases, um, to my benefit and on my timeline by withholding information and giving information out and, you know, obviously over the last few months I, uh, came to the realization that I can’t do that. Not realistically. So I....

FELDIS Is – is that your real reasoning?


RUSSO And I think we talked about for a while like, you know, an idea of this whole, you know, resolution on the CURRIER case being able to kinda structure that disposition around some of your demands. And, you know, we touched upon that and I know that, you know, we can’t talk about the other case but....

KEYES Right.

RUSSO know, it seems to me that, you know, if you give us a list of demands in connection with, I don’t know, a federal case on the CURRIER’s that we could try to at least start meeting those demands and at least say, you know, to Vermont state that if there’s any – an expression of an intent to continue cooperation in exchange for these types of things.

KEYES I – I, yeah, I understand what you’re saying. The problem is I don’t have any typical demands or there’s not anything you can offer me at this point and I realize that now. I realize that there’s more to these cases than people who sit in this room and we’re not the ones who pull all the strings on this. I’m realistic about that now so – and, um, because of things that have happened of the last couple months I just feel like there’s a lot of information that I’ve given out to date that twenty – twenty hindsight I wouldn’t have given out because I feel like now no matter what I do it’s gonna become public anyway. Whereas if I hadn’t given it out, you know, it wouldn’t have because you wouldn’t have the information to give out in the first place.

FELDIS Well I mean from – from our perspective, um, we’ve done a lot to – to respect your wishes about keeping the publicity low on this case and – and I think if you recall you’ve even told us that – that, yeah, you understand that we’ve done that and over time, um, as things have slowed down we haven’t learned about other crimes. And the FBI and, you know, authorities around the country have had to take certain steps right? I think the search warrant is an example that, you know, they said hey look, you know, give us a reason to tell our – to tell their bosses why they didn’t need to do a search warrant of KIMBERLY’s house. That they didn’t need to move forward but they didn’t have any reason. You know, so I think you can see that we can have a lot of control when we have some information from you and cooperation from you and if we don’t then we all lose control.

RUSSO And even Vermont’s letter – that I recall like, you know, they had this letter about all right you provide this and we just kind of sit back and we don’t get involved. I mean that was the thrust of that letter. And I think what happened in Vermont after that was sort of a function of, uh, you know, that’s – we’re sort of not going along with those – with that deal. And so I think that – that’s what ended up happening there. You know, I understand your perspective but at the same time, you know, I think there is a way to structure a deal around the CURRIER’s to satisfy some of your goals. I mean maybe not every one of ‘em but, you know, we can’t do that unless, you know, we sort of have a, you know, an exchange for future cooperation, here’s what I want to happen on the CURRIER, uh, case. If we have that I think that’s a little bit more concrete than a....

KEYES The only reason the CURRIER case has even become and issue is because of me wanting to keep control of that situation before it became a situation. That’s why we talked about it in the first place. Loose ends whatever you wanna call it.

RUSSO Mm-hm.

KEYES That was my concern. As far as long term clearly this – the whole situation is turning – going to turn into longer term than I anticipated even from my perspective. And so my position on it at this point is you’re asking for more information and I am still waiting to see what happens with the information I’ve already given. Um, so essentially what can happen is, you know, the – the – this is – it becomes a one way street until I see what comes out the other end on some of these other issues.

FELDIS Well we’re – we’re also looking at it from your – from what you expressed earlier the – the time frame. And we all said are we going to be sitting here a year from now and this was going back four months or five months.

KEYES Yeah (chuckles).

FELDIS So we’re getting a lot closer I think....

RUSSO (Chuckles).

FELDIS the year from now because....

KEYES Yeah, couple of months.

FELDIS So, you know, and, you know, we’ve also talked about the way that Vermont initially came out. You know, we were all kind of, um, hadn’t fully prepared for what could happen in Vermont right? You’ve said it, we’ve said it. And we’ve learned things from how we dealt with Vermont that would not meant, need to be repeated in other jurisdictions. So, you know, if we have, um, information about a victim in another jurisdiction we can approach them without even giving them any details.

KEYES I – I hear what you’re saying but at the same time I feel like there’s been several – I don’t wanna say breech of trust because I know that we don’t trust each other but based on initial things that were said verbally. Nothing in writing, I know we didn’t have agreements hard and fast I just feel like, you know, especially with the last search warrants that were executed it was done in a way that was clearly contrary to what my initial intentions were for the way this whole thing would play out. And, uh, you know, I hear what you’re saying as far as it has to be done but I – what I’m doubtful about is the motivation for doing it. Your motivation or the FBI whoever’s – whoever sanctioned that – they’re motivation for doing it and the way that they did it.

FELDIS Well hey like you said, you know, you’re gonna be suspicious of us, we’re gonna be suspicious of you but frankly when we’ve sat down in this room everyone here is trying to play straight with you. And I think if you look – if you understand the reality of the situation and you’re a pretty reality based guy, I mean you understand how the world works is, you know, once you stop telling us significant information about other crimes then the – these guys couldn’t control what the rest of the FBI is gonna do. And the playbook says, you know, if you’ve got a serial killer you’re gonna have to go through that house right? With a fine tooth comb. Even though they can say, hey ISRAEL’s told us there’s nothing there. Well, you know, they’re gonna do it and the only way to hold that off is to say, well look he’s cooperating and he’s giving us information. But when you stop then there’s gonna be consequences. We’re really – we’re trying to be as reality based about this thing. We’ve always give you what we thought was actually gonna happen in the real world. And it’s the same thing from Vermont, you know? If we had – had more information in Vermont I bet you Vermont would’ve been a whole lot more quiet and cooperative. As it is they’ve been really cooperative right? They haven’t filed any charges but, you know, how long can we hold off on them – without another piece of information? So....

BELL I Yeah. So you’re – you’re a reasonable person. Don’t you think if – we’ll use somebody else for an example. This – this type of case someone who is not cooperating and not talking with law enforcement don’t you think that it – it – this woulda been viral across the....

GOEDEN It woulda blow up, yeah.

BELL ....United States? Every place you’ve ever been. Don’t you think the – I mean if – if you hadn’t been talking to us we don’t have any other choice but to try to do it on our own and use all the information that we’ve put together about you and your whereabouts and put it out to those communities for help. And we haven’t done that because you’ve been talking with us. I mean....

RUSSO Even – even the stuff that we’ve done, I mean, you guys did a – I think a – a pretty good job even on the search warrants there were no statements to the press that we’re looking for evidence of other crimes. And, you know, no one stood in front of a camera and did that. I mean, yeah, cameras, you know, may have shown up but no one said a word. You know, and in hopes of still moving forward on this.

BELL And you can only be so discreet about doing something on like a street that’s (chuckles) six houses long.

KEYES Well especially if you block it off.

BELL Yeah, I mean but....

KEYES (Chuckles).

BELL Well and we were trying to prevent people who we didn’t want there, you know, to get into that. But you can’t stop....

KEYES I’m just saying, yeah, you’ve gotta go by your playbook but I refuse to except that there weren’t ways that you couldn’t have been more discreet or more, you know, that’s just my impression. I have nothing to go on other than what I see and my gut feeling on stuff at this point because I feel like I get the trickle down bullshit from all parties involved so, you know, that may or may not be the case but that’s just where I feel like I’m at right now.

FELDIS Right we can’t change your feeling but we can, I mean, we’ve always come into this room trying to give you the straight scoop. Um, and we’ve tried to deal with you that way because we know that you’re a smart guy and you know how the world works. And – and what I’m sensing and what you’re telling me now is – is you’re trying to, you know, look at us as if we’ve been, you know, manipulating....


FELDIS somehow.

KEYES No I don’t think anyone in this room has been manipulating. That’s not my concern right now. My concern, you know, you’re asking for more information. You talked about it going viral.

KEYES If I give you if – if – if I give you any more information and it somehow gets out and it gets in the paper again, you know, one more snippet of information could push the whole thing over the edge, you know, and then for – for –for the time being as many times as it’s been in the paper and there’s still all this speculation it hasn’t really taken off.

FELDIS And why do you think that is?

KEYES Well I know it’s because you haven’t been giving official statements that you could. Which I do appreciate that aspect of it. What I’m saying is until I know what’s gonna happen with certain current issues my big concern is that, um, another rumor gets out. It doesn’t have to come from you just another rumor from somebody. I don’t know. And then, you know, I’m not – I’m no longer in touch with all the different I – I don’t even know what’s being said, um, in the media or what has been said about the stories. I see little snippets here and there but, um, that’s my concern is that, you know, it could – it – some – i- i- if something else were to get out and if – especially in a different area or something then, uh, you know, and – and – and now there’s the whole Neah Bay aspect of it now too, you know, it’s like my kids living in Neah Bay now and gossip is the – is the town past time. So that’s my concern right now is it doesn’t even have to be – I feel like at – at this point it doesn’t even have to be something that was confirmed, it could just be a rumor and....

FELDIS Well you’re not gonna get rumors coming out from us and you haven’t so far. The stuff that’s come out is when there’s been – when the people outside of this room feel like that you’re not being forthcoming.

KEYES Right. I know.

FELDIS And – and we can – we can be advocates for how we wanna pursue this case but we need – we need something to – we need material. We need currency. We need something to advocate with. And that’s what kinda – not kinda that’s exactly what we’ve told you for the last six months or more.

KEYES Yeah, I understand that.


RUSSO What about, um, I mean just the idea of – and I’m just thinking alo – along the lines of what, you know, we tell Vermont lets just sort of stand down. Even just a clue that doesn’t give up anything from your perspective but at least gives everybody something to work with behind the scenes. Nothing that we, you know, have to kind of go and publicize to the world but a clue about, you know, one of the past murders that is really not gonna reveal anything. So you’re not playing any cards but at least we’re then going back to these guys bosses and to Vermont and saying, look he’s given us a clue in exchange for this sort of discretion and for everybody to kinda stand down so to speak.

KEYES Well first of all I don’t know – you already have (chuckles)....


KEYES You already have....

RUSSO Oh Course.

KEYES ....a lot of clues that I don’t know about.

RUSSO Mm-hm.

KEYES You know?


KEYES You have – you have that computer....

RUSSO So you wouldn’t be giving anything away.

KEYES I’m just – I’m just saying you have – I think you have a lot of background on me at this point.


KEYES I’m sure that – that I don’t even remember at this point.

RUSSO Mm-hm.

KEYES So....

GOEDEN The bosses above us though don’t know what’s on that computer. JEFF and I know what’s on that computer. So if – let’s just use FRANK’s example for a second. So if you were to give us a clue they don’t know – our – our bosses don’t know what – I’m being recorded (chuckles).

KEYES (Chuckles).

RUSSO (Chuckles).

FELDIS (Chuckles).

BELL (Chuckles).

GOEDEN Our bosses don’t know what is on that computer. So they’re not gonna know.

FELDIS And we won’t be here next time.

BELL (Chuckles).

GOEDEN (Chuckles) so....

KEYES (Chuckles).

GOEDEN So they’re not gonna know if we already knew that or not.

RUSSO Vermont doesn’t know either. They haven’t seen the evidence so you could be giving us nothing but at least it’s something we report to them.

GOEDEN Something, yeah, exactly.

RUSSO He reported that he committed a murder in X state. Okay, you know, big deal. That’s not gonna give us anything after, you know, given the timeline that you said four – fourteen years but at least it’s some sort of sign of progress. We can go back and say, no, no, no he’s actually given us a clue and, uh, things are moving forward and they can sort of feel good about themselves....

KEYES What....

RUSSO ....for not doing....

KEYES But when you’re – when you say clue are you talking about giving you names or what?



FELDIS You keep the name but give us the name of his state

RUSSO Give us a state or something.

FELDIS A state and a timeframe hey....

KEYES You already know some of the states.



FELDIS But give us something that we....

RUSSO But doesn’t matter.

FELDIS Progress from where we were months ago is what we’re looking for. I mean I – FRANK had to talk about this clue idea but, uh....

RUSSO (Chuckles).

KEYES (Chuckles). It’s ____ up.

FELDIS You know, something that we don’t obviously if you could tell us something we already, you know, have discussed in here that’s not progress.

RUSSO ‘Cause everybody knows what’s been discussed in here but, you know, lets assume it’s something from your perspective you’re not giving us anything because you think hey we already have it. It’s a clue and it’s just something that gives us credibly that we can report even though, you know, maybe this is just sort of, you know, fiction. That you give us all right, you know, New York or New Jersey. All right well, you know, he told us New Jersey. Or, you know, uh, something – something other – other thing that we can kinda report back that, you know, allows us a little bit of credibly with the people that we have to deal with.

KEYES Right.

FELDIS Something factual.

KEYES Did you find any knives in New York or in the boat? Folding knives about six inches long?

BELL I don’t know. I think there might have been in the boat. I think....

GOEDEN I think – I can find out.

BELL told us there was – you thought there was knives in the boat right?

RUSSO I think there was a knife in the boat.

KEYES There’s two knives that were not in KIMBERLY’s house and I don’t – I don’t know where they were. I thought they were in that bucket. I thought that they were – there may have – I may have left them in New York or there – I just thought there might have been one on the boat. Just knives that I had from a long time ago. But I haven’t seen ‘em in any of the pictures so I don’t....

BELL You ask TED or....

GOEDEN Yeah, I can find out about the boat. I don’t – I think there was a knife on the boat. I don’t rem – I don’t remember a knife being in the bucket though from the photos.


KEYES The knife that woulda been on the boat was – well there was a folding knife ¬¬from years and years ago.

FELDIS And why is that knife important?

KEYES Well it’s a folding knife so I don’t know if you took it apart you might....

FELDIS Would there be blood on the knife?

KEYES There – well there might. Not on it but maybe inside somewhere.

BELL In the joint or something, right? Is it the kind that has the – the handles are actually bolted or screwed to it or something? It’s not one solid piece in other words you can disassemble it some manner?

KEYES Yeah, it’s like riveted to it in there.

FELDIS Is the – would the blood be from a long time ago or just the knife?

KEYES No the blood’s not from a long time ago but I haven’t – I haven’t carried it for a while so I couldn’t remember where it – where I left it.

FELDIS Mm. Any other places where it might be?

KEYES No. I don’t....

BELL Well if it was in the boat it was a long time – the blood’s a long time ago.

KEYES Well....

BELL At least 2005.

KEYES Right. I’m – yeah. I mean I – there – there both knives that I got before that so....

FELDIS And would those be associated with the – the Washington murders?


GOEDEN Okay. On those lines while I’m waiting for TED to respon – I’m gonna make sure that I....

BELL TED’s the guy that was – that you met with while he was up here.

GOEDEN Yeah. I’m waiting to hear back....

BELL He’s the one that did the boat search.

GOEDEN ....from TED, um, on those lines, um, we talked to, um, someone out at the lab when we were talking about, you know, when the time comes when, um, you decide that you wanna give it additional information so that we’re prepared on what we need to do to be able to respond quickly we asked about, you know, what are the chances of if there is someone that is, um, somebody that – if there – if there’s a body at the bottom of a lake, what are the chances of that body still be intact, you know, seven years later or that kinda thing. What are we gonna be looking for and what do we need to have in place in order to be able to find – find that? And one of the things that they said, um, which might be of interest to you is depending on how – how the body was put down there, um, it’s potential – it possible that the body’s actually very intact. If the body was, um, just tied to something and dropped it to the bottom of the lake there’s definitely still gonna be long bones and that kinda stuff. You wont have finger bones and that kinda stuff but they’ll be, you know, femurs and long bones and that kinda thing. If the body was contained in something, uh, even a – a bag of some sort, um, it’s very possible that the body could still be intact, um, depending on the depth of the lake. Um, all of that determines the kind of equipment that we would need in order, you know, in order to locate, um, locate the body. Um, and so obviously not asking you for details about where and who and all that kinda stuff but in terms of – of Washington bodies, were they contained in something or were they just tied to the milk jugs?


GOEDEN I mean is it something where we – we might possibly actually still get an intact....


GOEDEN No? Okay. And that’s helpful for them to know because that – that’s a whole different type of search that it would have to be then and different types of equipment. Let me just try to call him step out and try to call him.


GOEDEN ‘Cause he’s not answering his text.


BELL And you – I guess I’m kinda getting a different vibe now. I just wanna – do you still envision in the future us working together to the point where we – we can get this information?

KEYES Yeah, I don’t see how we’re gonna get anything else done.

BELL Uh um.

KEYES I just, uh....

BELL I mean I know you’re waiting for, you know, whatever you’re waiting for to find out. But the….

KEYES Yeah, I have – I have concerns with current issues but, you know, I – I – I can definitely foresee down the road there’s gonna be a lot more that can be resolved.

BELL Okay.

KEYES Uh....

BELL And that’s good but what....

KEYES Been going about it in a different manner (chuckles).

BELL Okay, well, uh, but that’s good information ‘cause we’ll be able to pass that on.


BELL That you’re still open and you’re still....

KEYES No I haven’t – my, uh, outlook on this as far as the ultimate end – end result hasn’t really changed. It’s just – has more to do with timelines, expectations.

BELL And, you know, and we’re – the balancing game we’re – that we’re talking about doing we’re just trying to keep everybody happy the best we can ‘til we get to that point. And those are the – those are the – that’s kind of a difficult balancing act for us.

KEYES Right.

RUSSO And it sounds like you’re holding on to some of this stuff to trade it for something you might need later. True?

KEYES Well, yeah, because I don’t have much else to....

RUSSO Well and that – that’s the thing is, you know, this whole clue idea, you know, might give us a little short term solution to kinda keep this thing moving the way we want ‘em to move. Um, and maybe even get you something in the short term, you know? If you’re thinking about like – I don’t know, you know, you come, you give a clue and, uh, you know, you want lunch or something like that. I mean that’s something that can be worked out.

BELL You won’t even eat a candy bar anymore.

RUSSO I know that’s why I think you – you know, I don’t know if he feels guilty about it but....

BELL If you had a cigar you’d probably....

KEYES Jail foods just (UI).

BELL You’d probably pass out if you had a cigar right now.

RUSSO (Chuckles) but I mean the – the notion....

BELL (Chuckles).

RUSSO The notion of this whole idea is, you know, hey ya – ya come over, we keep things going, you know, at least on a – on a – on a smaller scale. You’re not giving up anything in terms of trading value but you’re giving us credibility with other people we have to deal with. You know, you’re not giving us any, you know, useful information really other than all right well we got, you know, a knife in Washington. Uh, it’s not like we’re gonna solve the clue game on that like, you know, professor plum in the library type of thing. But it – it gives us a little bit of, you know, stuff to go back with people and buy time and buy....

KEYES Right.

RUSSO ....what we need to buy. And, you know, in – in the short term, you know, you have short term needs that you think, you know, might be fun to have sush [sic]. That’s something that, you know, can be arranged. We’re not talking about, you know, huge clues here.

KEYES What did you guys find in the boat? Was there anything left?

BELL I thought we went over....

GOEDEN Yeah, we went, um....


GOEDEN There – there was....

KEYES I saw the list.

GOEDEN There was no knife. Oh you mean in terms of the lab?


GOEDEN Um, it has not – everything has not gone to, uh, finished up at DNA yet, um, so it’s possible that there were still, um, there were some – some areas that did test positive for blood. Just when they do like a pres – they call it a presumptive test when the people that were searching it. So those things went into the lab and some of those things were like the screws from holding the carpeting in and that kinda thing. Those have not come back yet from DNA, um, the little, uh, there were some little fragments that they thought might have been bone fragment, um, was not bone – did not test positive for bone. That one’s come back.

BELL Sand or something.

GOEDEN Yeah. They didn’t – weren’t able to – we didn’t ask what it was but it wasn’t bone.

KEYES Right.

GOEDEN Um, there’s some hair that, um, is not yours, um, but the way they figure out hair is....

GOEDEN Yeah, there was.

KEYES I wasn’t sure how long – ‘cause it’s been sitting there in the rain for so long. I was curious if there was – I mean I know there....


KEYES ....was when I parked it.

GOEDEN Yeah, there was. I just – I don’t – we haven’t heard anything back about it. And – and – and they – they need something to compare it with.

KEYES Right.

FELDIS So there’s no knife?

GOEDEN No knife. There was no knife in the boat.

FELDIS So that doesn’t help us.

KEYES It may have been, uh, yeah, I don’t know what happened to that knife. It was a Tanto. Cold steel Tanto.

GOEDEN How big? Like was it a ss-....

KEYES It had a – it was a four – four and a half inch folding blade.


KEYES And I think I bought it at Walmart in, uh, Port Angeles.

GOEDEN Do you remember what color the handle was?

KEYES It looked very similar to the one that I had on me when I was arrested.


KEYES Just a different blade style. Same company and everything.


RUSSO So I’m correct about that – that was the murder weapon for one of the Washington murders?

KEYES Well it was involved, yeah.

RUSSO It was involved?



FELDIS I think we talked about before when we were asking about federal jurisdiction about guns?


FELDIS Were the – were any – were either of those victims shot?


FELDIS No? Strangled?

KEYES (BRIEF SILENCE). (Chuckles) you’ll get the whole story eventually.

RUSSO Mm-hm.


(Concurrent Speech).

FELDIS Need to get parts so that we can move, uh....

KEYES No the only person I ever shot was, uh, Bill CURRIER.

FELDIS Mm-hm. Everybody else was strangled?

KEYES Yeah, or, yeah.

FELDIS Or? I don’t wanna have the wrong impression, you know, so everybody else was strangled or was there something else?

KEYES Um, (BRIEF SILENCE) yeah, I (chuckles) no, well one of the Washington things there was a (BRIEF SILENCE) well it doesn’t matter. It just - no it wasn’t – it wasn’t s – strangling. Wow Uh, I hit somebody in the head so....

FELDIS Did that – did you mean to kill ‘em or they died as a – was there a struggle and you hit them and they died? Or did you mean to kill ‘em that way?

KEYES No I wasn’t – I wasn’t trying to kill ‘em I was just, uh, taking ‘em outta action.

RUSSO And I think we read that in one of the – those letters. Is the – the male of the male female couple.

KEYES Yeah, it’s a little – I don’t know. RICH mentioned that they gave you all (chuckles) that stuff (chuckles). So I should have asked him to give me copies so I’d know which ones you have.

BELL We could go over that together and you could fill in the blanks.

KEYES (Chuckles).

BELL At some point in time.

FELDIS Well we know in Washington....

KEYES I didn’t realize they were allowed to just take stuff outta my cell that I wasn’t mailing. That was pretty big mistake on my part. (Chuckles).

FELDIS Well we know from that – that there was a couple in Washington state. A male female couple. We read that in the – in the note. Are those the same couple from the – that you took to the boat and dumped in the lake? Or were there others?

RUSSO Oh they went in the hole.

FELDIS You know, from….

RUSSO Yeah, they – they were buried.

KEYES Yeah, that was a while ago.

FELDIS That was a long time ago? Right after the mil – was that right after the military? You told us once right after the military. After you got outta the military.

KEYES It was before I got the boat.

FELDIS Okay. And you had told us one time that, you know, it wasn’t long when you got outta the military that you, um, killed somebody and it was that sort of feeling that you needed to do something. That it was hard to resist.

KEYES Yeah, Neah Bay’s a boring town.

BELL Is it fair to say that we’re looking at a lot around – more around the Washington area than that?

KEYES (No audible response).

BELL Just the two in Washington?

KEYES Hm-mm.

FELDIS No there’s a – there’s a couple in....


FELDIS There’s a couple in Washington and then there’s the two _____ with the boat. Is that right?


FELDIS Okay. So if we can’t find this knife I guess, um, unfortunately that doesn’t give us much to go on.

BELL I know we took – I know we had some knives. I don’t know what all we have from.

KEYES I know you got some from ¬¬KIMBERLY’s house.

BELL Is it possible it was ¬¬¬¬¬at KIMBERLY’s?

KEYES I don’t think so. I haven’t seen it for several years.

RUSSO Could be in a different Washington cache?

KEYES No. No I don’t think there’s any knives in Washington.

GOEDEN Or Wyoming one we talked about?



BELL The couple a husband and wife or do you know?

KEYES I’m not gonna talk about that stuff.

FELDIS Okay, what about other caches – like another cache?

KEYES (BRIEF SILENCE) well the other caches aren’t related to any – I mean that – that one in New York was the only one directly rel – related to a murder as far as I know. The guns – some of the guns were stolen.

FELDIS Well that would give us something to go on if there was a cache that they could go and retrieve.

KEYES Yeah, I suppose.

FELDIS That would keep....

BELL Everybody likes a buried treasure.

FELDIS I think that would keep the FBI busy.


KEYES Yeah. Well I’ll have to think about which ones I’m willing to part with (chuckles).

FELDIS That’s right.

RUSSO That’s right.

BELL If you thought of....

KEYES It all still belongs to me until you know about it.

FELDIS Have a can – have a candy bar.

KEYES (Chuckles).

BELL If you thought – if you thought of one that you wanted to give up then maybe we might be able to work something out with the – our video.

GOEDEN Oh, yeah, that’s a good idea.

KEYES Well that’s another issue is there – the others I mean I can’t find just with satellite maps so....

GOEDEN We’d have to do it that way.

KEYES Like the general areas but....

FELDIS Yeah, well if you gave them a general area they could probably get somebody....

BELL We – we’d have – we’d just have to have to have enough information to get a hold of, you know, a tech person to....

GOEDEN That covers that area.

KEYES Right.

RUSSO So again, you know, it would be a cache. It’s not related to anything so you’re not really giving up any of your cards to trade with

(Concurrent Speech).

KEYES Well that’s the issue they’re all related to stuff they’re just – yeah, I just have to – I have to think about it.

FELDIS Well....

KEYES And try and remember what’s in....



FELDIS But it’s sort of interesting for you too. You’ll get to see what’s in there and you’ll get to see ‘em again.

KEYES Yeah, and then it’s like one of those oh shit moments.

RUSSO (Chuckles).

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

KEYES Once you dig it up and then see what’s in it.

RUSSO (Chuckles).

FELDIS ISRAEL there’s been too many oh shit moments.

BELL (Chuckles).

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

KEYES Yeah, well I’ve had enough. I’ve had my share for the year.

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

KEYES (Chuckles).

FELDIS Well, you know, there – it’s just the way....


FELDIS Well why don’t you – why don’t you if you’re able to do that I think that’s gonna buy us – give everybody something to do. People like to have something to do. If they can, uh, be digging up a cache and then you’ll get to see how the video works and you’ll get to see what’s in there. And both

KEYES How long does a body last in a fresh water lake? I mean ‘cause there’s no critters that eat....

GOEDEN It depends on....

KEYES ....bodies in fresh water lakes right?

GOEDEN It depends how deep – I learned a lot when we were talking about....

BELL ‘Cause it depends how deep and the temperature of the water.

GOEDEN deep it is and if the bodies contained in something.

BELL And if it’s not critters it can be like....

KEYES Bacteria.


FELDIS Organisms.

GOEDEN They were talking if the....

KEYES So if the waters below say forty five degrees all the time.

BELL I would think that would be good.

GOEDEN It’s a good chance.

BELL Then you – I think you said eighty – up to eighty feet. At one point and time you told us.

KEYES Oh there’s water that’s a lot deeper than that.

FELDIS Like two hundred feet?

BELL So we should like get a submarine?

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

BELL (Chuckles).

FELDIS Deeper than two hundred feet?

KEYES You guys know about Lake Crescent in Washington right?


FELDIS How deep is it?

KEYES I think that lake is five to seven hundred feet deep.

FELDIS Really?

KEYES They’ve never been to the bottom of it. There’s – people have gone off that lake and they still haven’t found ‘em. Their cars or anything.

FELDIS And that’s the lake?

KEYES That’s one of the lakes.

FELDIS So it’s fairly deep so this may be never could be able to be recovered?

KEYES Well it’s over....

BELL Two man submarine.

KEYES ....two hundred feet and....

FELDIS So five hundred feet?

BELL That’s the lake.

KEYES That’s the deepest part but....

RUSSO ¬¬¬¬Oh.

KEYES ....I’m saying I don’t know how deep it was. I know the general area. I had a fish finder but it didn’t register how deep it was. I just know it was over a hundred feet.

BELL Maxed out at a hundred feet?

FELDIS Oh is that your fish finder – goes to a hundred?

KEYES I think. I don’t remember. I just know if you’ve been to the lake you would see what I’m talking about. It – it, you know, drops down like a V so....


FELDIS But you didn’t go to the five hundred foot places for....

KEYES No I wasn’t – I was in a – I was near the edge but, you know, thirty feet out from the bank on that lake it goes – it drops down to fifty, sixty feet already. And I was. So anyway....

FELDIS Hm, okay.

GOEDEN They – the lab was talking about a case recently actually where they recovered a car that had been submerged in water and I don’t know how deep it was even in but it was – it was a relatively cold lake. And because it had been submerged in – and water still got in but critters and other things weren’t able to get in the car and that was in the 40’s – in the 1940’s. And part of the body was still intact. Because sh – the – the person was protected by the car. So there’s a lot of factors that go into it.

KEYES Right.

GOEDEN But there will definitely, um, even if there isn’t skin or things like that, long bones will be – can be recovered. They’ll just be missing small bones.

KEYES Yeah, I don’t really tend to move around.

GOEDEN But if there’s other – if there’s other sp – specifics in terms of things that you know of depths and temperatures and that kinda stuff we can certainly make some phone calls and find out what to predict.

KEYES Well that – I figured you would have guessed that lake (chuckles). It was pretty obvious. But, um, that I – I was – I always had me curious as to what it look like – I would think as deep as that lake is it’s probably sitting there just exactly as it was when it first touched down.

FELDIS Could be.

KEYES I know most fresh water lakes that deep there aren’t even that many fish that go down that deep is it.

BELL But that one’s not in anything it’s just ropes or something holding it....

FELDIS Is that the milk jugs that you said?

KEYES Well that’s what the weights were.

FELDIS Milk jugs. How many milk jugs? I mean is it gonna move around?

KEYES Uh, no. I don’t think so.

FELDIS How many milk jugs we talking about?

KEYES At least four or five I would think.

FELDIS Just for one body?


FELDIS Hm. Well what about a cache that they can work on for next week?

KEYES (BRIEF SILENCE) well the easiest would be Washington. ‘Cause I – I don’t – I know my way around there a little better (chuckles).


RUSSO The agents are already talking....

KEYES But I have to – I have to – I’ll have to think about it.

RUSSO I think it....

BELL Try to remember what’s (chuckles) in it.

FELDIS Do you want ‘em to li – do you want ‘em to line it up? That’s a thing that can’t be – we can’t make the decision that day because they won’t have time to, you know, they wont have time to line it up.

BELL You think about doing the live feed....

KEYES The live feed.

BELL Yeah.



BELL But if you think about it over the weekend or something....

KEYES Yeah, um....

RUSSO And if there’s anything you want like, you know, short....

KEYES Can you get me like an hour on the internet maybe (chuckles)?


BELL Sure.


(Concurrent Speech).


KEYES (Chuckles). Before – before we do this (chuckles).

FELDIS You want an hour on the internet?

RUSSO (Chuckles).

KEYES Need to do a little research (chuckles) first. I’ve – I’ve been a – I’ve been a – I’ve been an info blackout for too long so....

RUSSO Mm. I think it, you know, you can think about that and if there’s anything you want short term in terms of....

KEYES I was joking. I wouldn’t do that anyway.

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

RUSSO Well I’m not talking about the internet I’m talking about like if you want some sort of item and you do this but, you know, I want lunch.

BELL You wouldn’t do that on the internet if we set a computer down here?

KEYES No ‘cause I know you’re just gonna go right to see everywhere I went (chuckles).

RUSSO We wouldn’t do that to you.

BELL No. (Chuckles).

RUSSO (Chuckles).

KEYES (Chuckles). Yeah you would.

RUSSO Uh, but, yeah – no anything, you know, to kind of satisfy any short term goals you have even if it’s just food or, you know, coffee or, you know, whatever. Obviously you have coffee anyway but, you know, again it’s sort of a situation where I think you’re not giving up anything just giving us help with whoever we need to persuade and....

KEYES Right.

RUSSO You know, I think it, you know....

KEYES No I – I can see your – I – I see your point of view I do – on this.


KEYES But at the same time I have my own frustrations right now as well so....

RUSSO Mm-hm.

BELL But ev – even like this is productive. This will be viewed as productive, you know, I mean you – you said – you came over, we got stuff and so....

KEYES It’s only productive from a non prosecuting attorneys point of view (chuckles).

BELL But it’s productive to us.

KEYES Yeah. I was sure you got me my stuff. It’s okay.

BELL (Chuckles).

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

FELDIS You know, you – you think....

KEYES I’m not getting out on bail any time soon (chuckles).

FELDIS You think that I’m not working – try to work with you. I am but from my perspective, you know, ISRAEL said he’s gonna do a lot of things in a short time frame and we’ve been sitting here flicking months away and....

KEYES Believe me I’m aware of the months clicking.

BELL (Chuckles).

RUSSO (Chuckles).

KEYES I’m just, uh, I have a new appreciation for things being done at a different speed, that’s all.

GOEDEN So let me just make sure I’m clear on the cache. Um, do you have a general area now that you can give us or do you wanna think about it?

BELL Washington right?

GOEDEN But I mean even within....


GOEDEN There’s....

BELL The two districts.

GOEDEN It’s a big state. And we have – we have offices in a bunch of places so we’d have to figure out which office we’re working with.

BELL Within fifty or a hundred miles of....

GOEDEN Is there anything close to Neah Bay or....

KEYES Well, yeah.

GOEDEN ....up in that area?

KEYES Yeah, not near Neah Bay but in that....

GOEDEN That area? Okay.

RUSSO Did you – you already....

BELL ¬¬¬Would that be Ted and Colleen?

FELDIS Outside of Seattle. Between Seattle and Neah Bay.


KEYES Right.

RUSSO You’ve already met those agents already so....

GOEDEN ‘Kay, so I need to arrange with them.

RUSSO’s not like we’re bringing in new people.

KEYES Can I see that top picture?

GOEDEN Mm-hm. There’s more pictures from this too. I didn’t grab ‘em all. I can print ‘em all out and have ‘em for you next time. I know there were a couple, uh, um, a lot of gun parts and pieces but I don’t, there aren’t any knives in this one.

RUSSO (UI) You did? Okay, good.

GOEDEN I’ll grab – I can grab the rest of the pictures next time. Okay, so do you want me try to set that up for next week? I don’t have – I’m obviously not gonna know a day until I talk....

KEYES For Port Angeles area?

GOEDEN Somewhere.

FELDIS Port Angeles?

KEYES (BRIEF SILENCE). Yeah, I don’t – don’t set up a time yet. I gotta try and remember....

FELDIS Why don’t you get the computer and we can look right now if you want.

BELL Is that – is that gonna help you to remember?

(Concurrent Speech).

GOEDEN On – on Google.

FELDIS Google – you can look at Google right now if you want.

BELL Well you know the area right?

(Concurrent Speech).

BELL He’s trying – he doesn’t....

KEYES I’m trying to remember what’s in it.

BELL He’s trying to remember what he has in it.

FELDIS That’s probably not gonna be on Google.

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

RUSSO We could find out together. We’ll just, you know, open it up and be like Al Capone’s vaults.

KEYES It’s not that impressive.

BELL (Chuckles).

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

KEYES It’s just a....

RUSSO Either we....

KEYES I’m more concerned about the little stuff that might be in it. (BRIEF SILENCE). Well, well, well, things you never thought you’d be talking about. Um, and then on the Tupper Lake thing you had agents up there with cameras but you just wanted to talk about the bank robbery or were you....

BELL Well we – what we had set up was we just had them at the bank robbery parking lot to show you the live feed that we could do.

GOEDEN We can talk about whatever you wanna talk about.

BELL Yeah, we didn’t have any expectations but we thought the natural progression because of....

KEYES Right.

BELL ....what we’ve been talking would be in that general area so we wanted to get things moving there.

KEYES Right.

BELL You know, and if you wanted to just like pull out of the parking lot and then take us to the river bend....

KEYES (Chuckles).

RUSSO (Chuckles).

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

BELL ....that woulda been all the better.

KEYES Well I....

BELL But....

KEYES Yeah, I was just....

RUSSO You would be driving.

GOEDEN (Chuckles).

BELL Yeah, it would be like you’d be driving so (BRIEF SILENCE). ‘Cause we thought maybe that’s how it’s gonna have to be eventually maybe is that – that you might have to be in the driver seat so to speak to see, you know, landmarks or whatever you need to see.


RUSSO It’s almost as good as being out.

BELL I’d like to tell you we were gonna drive you to the dig sight. We were gonna show you what we were doing but....

GOEDEN That’s not happen.


KEYES Yeah, I’m having a harder time remembering roads in Port Angeles than I was in East (UI). I’m sure I can figure it out.

BELL That’s why you need that computer for a hour to refresh your....

KEYES No I’ll just have to ¬¬¬¬¬driven through in Washington for a while. Um, all right well....

BELL So we won’t set it up we’ll just....

GOEDEN We’ll get them working on it though because it’s....

BELL Get their techy [sic]....

GOEDEN Yeah, their tech geeky guy has to....

BELL Their geek squad.

GOEDEN ....get the camera and get everything all kinda set up.

KEYES Right.

GOEDEN So we will get that moving and then we can touch base with you maybe at the beginning of next week and, uh, have a better idea of – of what your schedule is gonna be like and then figure out when we can – and I’ll know at that point what their schedule is gonna be. Then we can maybe figure out some time that would work.

KEYES Yeah, we might be – we might be able to have a – another meeting next week, anyway. My other attorneys are in town so. Apparently that was an issue today.

GOEDEN Okay. All right what we may do then JEFF is – JEFF and I may come by the jail and just figure out that piece that we were just talking about, um, about the timing. And then we can – and go from there.


RUSSO In the mean time I’m supposed to talk to Vermont tomorrow and I’ll just tell them that, you know, there’s – there’s some movement on – on – on, you know, giving these other clues and use that to our advantage.

KEYES Yeah, I don’t really understand how the whole Vermont things going to play out.

RUSSO Well, you know, it’s – it’s frustrating, uh, from our perspective as well.

KEYES I mean hypothetically if they charge me federally would you indict – would they indict me up here or would they move – I just don’t understand considering everything else that’s going on why they would – or how – I guess not why but how it would work. I don’t – like the logistics of it.

FELDIS Well they, you know, it’s just they want – they want to be able to have sol – that crime solved.

KEYES Right they want – they want to put my name on it.

FELDIS That’s right.

KEYES I understand that.


KEYES It’s not gonna be officially solved ‘til....

RUSSO Exactly. It’s a law enforcement....

FELDIS But no – but, you know, they want to be able to put your....

KEYES Right.

FELDIS to it.

KEYES Right.

FELDIS And....

KEYES I understand that.

FELDIS That’s – and then the question is how the, you know, it will work. Do they wanna file the charges there and, you know, that’s what we’re talking....


RUSSO And it’s a lot easier for them just to stomach it if they, you know, there forbearance is giving rise to clues to other murders, you know, whatever those clues might be I think that – that....


RUSSO able to accomplish our goal.

KEYES I understand their perspective. I just....


KEYES I, uh, from my perspective though even if they were to officially charge me at this point it’s not, uh, not like it would be real breaking news anyway.

RUSSO No. I think, you know, in some ways it would be ‘cause no law enforcement person has ever confirmed that your attached....

KEYES Right.

RUSSO that so....

KEYES It would just be confirmation of everyone’s current speculation....

RUSSO Exactly.

KEYES all I’m saying.

RUSSO So....

KEYES So I – I – I don’t – I’m not interested in it from that point. I was just interested in it from a logistics point where do they have to fly me to Vermont if they’re gonna charge me or....

FELDIS Well, you know, that’s – those are the....

RUSSO Yeah, we’re hoping....

FELDIS Those are some of the questions.

RUSSO Yeah, we’re hoping not to get there.

KEYES Is it warmer in Vermont? (Chuckles).

RUSSO Little warmer.

KEYES (Chuckles).

RUSSO But not much. They just got snow the other day. When we talked to ‘em Monday it had just snowed they told us.

BELL They got more snow than us then.




KEYES It will be snow soon .

GOEDEN They don’t have much in New York.

KEYES They got a quarter for last year.

RUSSO Yep. All right any other questions?



GOEDEN All right we’ll go round everybody up and....

BELL You gotta take a leak before we take you back?


BELL All right. You’re not going to eat this?

KEYES No. I’m good. Thank you.

BELL You’re sure?

KEYES Yeah, I’m sure.


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