BELL - Officer Jeff Bell, Anchorage Police Department
PAYNE - Special Agent Steve Payne, FBI
RUSSO - Assistant U.S. Attorney, Kevin Feldis
KEYES - Israel Keyes
PAYNE Hey ISRAEL how we doing?
KEYES All right.
PAYNE Need to use the head or anything like that before we start?
KEYES No, I’m good.
PAYNE All right, we’ll run through the, uh, same stuff that we do I think pretty much every time on this, uh, I know we covered some of this stuff at the jail but we’ll just run through it again. Uh, when we arrived this morning did we interrupt a meeting with your attorney?
PAYNE Okay, um, and you’re here voluntarily is that correct?
PAYNE Okay, um, you understand we can’t talk about anything to do with the, uh, Samantha KOENIG investigation. If you do start down that path we’ll have to stop the interview and we’ll have to take you back to jail. You understand that?
PAYNE Okay, um, run through your Miranda rights real quick here. Before we ask you any questions you must understand your rights, uh, you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in court. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before we ask you any questions. You have the right to have a lawyer with you during questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish. Uh, if you decide to answer questions now without a lawyer present you have the right to stop answering at any time. Do you understand these rights as I’ve explained ‘em to ya?
PAYNE Okay, and with those rights in mind are you willing to waive them and speak with us here today?
PAYNE Okay, um, as you know you’ve got, uh, at least one stand by attorney appointed, uh, in the discussion of other crimes that type of thing. I believe it’s Rich CURTNER it may also include Jacqueline WALSH. Um, do you have any desire to have either of those attorneys or any other attorney present today?
PAYNE Okay, um, are you on any medications or any other substances?
PAYNE Okay, and are you having any difficulty understanding where you’re at or what’s going on?
PAYNE Okay, all right good deal. Any questions before we get started?
PAYNE Okay, um, we wanted to, uh - uh, bring you over here today give you a little bit of information about, uh, some things that are going on but also to ask you, uh, kinda where you’re at, uh, with things. It sounded like you - you’re kind of frustrated with things, um, I don’t know if that’s something you wanna expand on at all.
KEYES Uh, just things haven’t been happening for the last week. Uh, there were some things that I asked for information on as well as - well basically that was the gist of it. And, uh, and haven’t heard anything back, so we’ll see. I don’t know supposedly within the next day or two I’m supposed to get a more comprehensive visit or information or something but so far it hasn’t happened so.
FELDIS Well we, you know, we’re not talking anything about, um, Samantha KOENIG but what I - and I’ve been back east last week, I think maybe those guys told you. And they gave me a little bit of an update, um, ISRAEL but, uh, since I’ve been out of the loop I wanted to come and see ya kinda let you know maybe the conversations I’ve been having - having with other US Attorney’s offices. But before I do that I just though the same thing - same kinda question in relates [sic] in relation to moving things forward, you know, where - where are you at kind of about all this? What’s your take on this? Again, not talking about what you’re doing with other stuff but - but where are you in regards to the discussions we have been having?
KEYES Um, well I’m same place I’ve always been. Uh, I - I am, uh, obviously a little concerned about giving out a lot more information especially over too short a period of time until I find out where I stand on some other issues so. Um, it’d be nice if all these other issues would just, uh, work themselves out and, uh, resolve themselves the way I want them to without my coercion. But, um, that’s not gonna happen so I gotta do what I gotta do. You know, and, uh, yeah, this would be a lot simpler if I would, you know, would just take certain steps so that I could expound upon that a little bit more but, um, I’m not ready to do that yet. So, if I have to I will but (chuckles) it’s, uh, um, but yeah as far as, uh, discussing things about whether it’s the Vermont case or, you know, things that happened prior to that, um, I think that, you know, it’s probably still gonna happen. It’s just, uh, I guess the reality sets in for me as to how - how much more time there is to pass before I may find out, um, things I need to find out (chuckles) so.
BELL And - and your feeling is if you give us additional information it’s gonna effect other things or not effect other things or you lose control over it?
KEYES Well, yeah, it’s a - once I give out the information then it’s, uh, it’s gone, you know?
FELDIS L - lemme just jump in on that cause I’m, you know, this is getting, um, you know, I should say frustrating but I - I - I could almost say it’s getting depressing right? You know that we’re and maybe you feel the same way that we - that you have been meeting with us now about other crimes for…
FELDIS …for weeks, and weeks, and weeks. And, um, I think it’s getting kind of just down right depressing that we are not moving forward and not - it’s I don’t think it’s because, uh, I - I’m not sure why it is. I mean, we came in here a month ago and laid out that plan that - that Frank RUSSO laid out. And - and, you know, because we’ve been kinda bending over backwards from the - from the US Attorney’s office perspective of saying look, we’re - we’re gonna work with you and we’re gonna, you know, move the other things forward that are gonna need to be moved forward with all these other crimes.
FELDIS We all kinda understand that we’re gonna need to move forward and so we thought you’re - you’re on the schedule of wanting to move other crimes investigations forward. We know you - we know you wanna keep the media down, we know you don’t wanna be charged in other jurisdictions, we know those things. We took them into account and we came up with a strategy to say well let’s move ‘em forward and we really kinda, you know, busted ourselves to do that. So we’re getting kinda just like I said I - I should be saying frustrated but I’ll start with just kinda depressed about that we’re not moving those things forward and so…
BELL And the sa…
FELDIS What’s your view - what’s your view on that?
BELL And the same with law enforcement, you know, this isn’t typical the way we would…
BELL …move forward with this type of investigation. And so for us it’s frustrating and we’re do - we’re doing it this way because this is the way that, uh, ISRAEL wanted to - to do it and…
FELDIS So what - what’s you take - what’s your take on - on our…
KEYES This isn’t the way I wanted to do it (chuckles).
FELDIS Well at least tell us - tell us what your take is on the - on that.
KEYES Well my take is, you know, I’ve said this before even though we may at this point all want the same end results, um, it doesn’t mean we’re still - we’re on the same team by any means, you know?
FELDIS We - we - we’ve always known that.
FELDIS We’re not pretending.
KEYES So, I’m not, you know, I’m not, um, I understand that you’ve got you’re schedule, you’ve got your deadlines, you’ve got things you’ve gotta get done but honestly that’s of no concern to me. I, uh, I - if I can - if we can continue to work together and, uh, and make stuff happen, great. If not, you know, if - if - if it’s not going the way you want it to or you’re not getting your information fast enough then, um, do what you gotta do, you know? But I already know you’ll, you know, you’ll be back so.
FELDIS And maybe - maybe we’ve been - maybe we’ve been too honest with you then, I guess. I mean we’re - we’re - we know we’re on, you know, we know that we’re not on the same team.
KEYES Do you wanna see me?
FELDIS Well, yeah, because if you’re saying - I mean I think what you’re saying is you’re kinda challenging us and I - I didn’t think that’s where we were in our discussions.
KEYES No I’m not challenging you I’m just saying I know you’ve - you’ve got your agenda. What you need to get done and, uh, what you need to - you have to have something to show for it, for your work on this.
FELDIS Well but it’s sort of funny ‘cause we thought it was your agenda that was kinda driving this and wanting to move things quickly and wanting to keep the media…
FELDIS …down and , you know, that’s why we’ve been working on kinda your agenda. That’s why I’m like wait a second, this is what ISRAEL wanted.
KEYES No I - you’re right. I mean, it’s - so far it has gone according to - according to my agenda as much as it can, um, the issue is - is, uh, there’s still a lot of time that’s gonna pass before I get the things I want so. If I give up a - all - if I give up all my cards right away then that’s it, you know?
KEYES I - I have no control over what happens a month from now or six months from now.
PAYNE I - I guess I would respectfully disagree with that because to the extent that, um, we demonstrate that the plan that we came up with collectively a month ago is working, then that is gonna help you get the things that you want. And at this point we’ve only really been able to demonstrate that half of the plan is working and frankly that’s our half. We did everything that we agreed to do and you haven’t done what you agreed to do.
KEYES (Chuckles). (Unintelligible). First of all I didn’t agree to do anything today. I already told you that so, you know, I - I told you I’ve got different agenda now then when we came up with that plan because of things that happened between then and now. So, you know, I, you know, fine I changed the rules shame on me. But, uh, that doesn’t really change the bottom line. I’m not gonna - I’m gonna at least find out what my options are. (Chuckles). And, uh, that hasn’t happened yet so, you know, I understand it put a hitch in the schedule but, um, you know, and - and that’s not the only issue right now. There are some other th - you know, other things that we can’t talk about and that’s a - an issue with me too. And I know that, uh, you know, there’s a lot of debate that these things aren’t connected but, uh, to a certain extent for - for me and what happens to me in the end, they are pretty closely connected so.
FELDIS Well as we’ve said before we wont talk to you about anything related to Samantha KOENIG now but if you wanna request a meeting we…
FELDIS …will. And if that’s what you guys decide, that’s totally up to you and your counsel.
FELDIS And we’ll make ourselves available but I - we won’t discuss them now.
KEYES No I understand that and, uh…
FELDIS Um, you - you know you said you don’t wanna give up all cards. We understand that, we haven’t been asking you to do that. All your cards (unintelligible) you know. Sure, would we love it if you just said, yeah, I’m just gonna tell you everything.
FELDIS Then frankly I would - I would say, things would move much more quickly in the end because - because we’d be working on those and getting ‘em all resolved and getting ‘em all lined out the way we said so that we can control it and you would control it. I would love that, right? You know that. But I’m not - I wont even ask you that today. I’m not gonna say, ISRAEL, you know, tell me everything, you - you know. I think it would be in your best interest but you don’t see it that way. Fine, you know, I get it. Um, I’ve asked you to think about that but, um, we gotta start - we gotta start the process. ‘Cause you know that everything takes a little bit of time and we can move it quickly but if, you know, if like I said before - are we gonna be sitting here a year from now…
FELDIS …we’ll all agree no. But now a month has gone by, so now we only got 11 months (chuckles) now, you know, and are we gonna be - am I gonna be saying next month, we got 10 months to go. Uh, ‘cause we all agreed we weren’t gonna be sitting here in - in a year doing this so, uh, you know?
KEYES Oh believe me, I’m very well aware of passage of time. So, um, I, uh, I have my own definite agenda on that issue but as I’ve said I don’t have a lot of control over it so.
FELDIS But I think you have more than you think. In other words you can - you discuss the other crimes with us then that moves things forward and that’s under your control, right? Only - you only decide what you want to tell us. You, Israel KEYES, sitting here today control what - what you tell us. We then control what we do with it and I think we’ve demonstrated…
FELDIS And we’ve demonstrated to you, and you know it’s in our best interest to control it.
KEYES For now, yeah. I - I - no I understand. I - I understand where we’re at right now and, uh…
PAYNE Where do you think…
KEYES In order for things to progress I, um, I have to take a guess as to what’s gonna happen next I guess you could say. Um, which is I don’t know, yeah, there’s a lot of things that could happen. Even with the information I’ve already given you there’s a lot of things that could happen with it so.
FELDIS Well it - it’s all - it’s your schedule. It’s - it’s, you know, you - you - I think you said it’s was our schedule, it’s really your schedule and that we’ve been trying to work around. So we can sit here and guess, and wonder what’s gonna happen in the future and none of us are gonna predict right? I mean it’s - whatever happens is gonna happen. But the only thing we can control is what we’re doing right now. And we have a definite concrete certain way that we can move forward now that will definitely expedite whatever happens down the line. Because as you know - you know, we’ve got all these other crimes to talk about. It will definitely expedite - it’s certain if we start now. Everything else is just speculation so we can wait and see but time’s gonna move by.
KEYES Yeah - no I - I see what you’re saying and it’s like the ultimate goal. If that is the ultimate goal that I put all this stuff out on the table then, yeah, then it’s better to do it now. But that’s - I haven’t decided yet that - that’s my ultimate goal. Certainly not on these terms. Um, you know, like I say there’s certain information that I’ve already given you so.
KEYES Um, so what happens with that, you know? I already - I’ve already given up control of that to a certain extent, um, but, uh, everything I still have, you know, that’s - it’s still within my power to decide how that information gets to you. From me to you as a matter of speaking (chuckles).
FELDIS Exactly. E - e - e - exactly. And - and what I was suggesting to you is, you know, you’ve got a lot of cards to play and we’ve respected that but were asking you to play one more card. And I think that’s in your best interest. I’m not telling you that just because, you know, that you th - that’s what I think you wanna hear. I’m - I’ve been using your goals all along.
KEYES Well it’s not in my best interest today because there’s absolutely nothing I gain from it. Just more worries…
FELDIS But you actually move - you move the ball forward.
KEYES …about what happens. Forward to what though? I don’t - there’s no - there’s no objective that I’m moving towards by giving you more information.
FELDIS Okay, when - when talking about the other crimes, the CURR - lets just use - we’re using the CURRIER’s as we’re investigating that. We’ve agreed to certain things with the CURRIER’s and we’ve lived up to them.
FELDIS And so your objective of that I think remains the same. Keep it out of the media…
FELDIS …don’t have them charge you. So we’re trying to further those obj - I mean, that’s only one of the objectives I think we’re mutually trying…
KEYES But that’s an indefinite objective. That’s - I mean the CURRIER’s that’s essentially a closed case. I’ve given you all the…
KEYES …information you need on it. And I’ll continue to give you any information you need. And if it ever goes to me being indicted for it then I’ll probably, you know, plead guilty to everything. And so that’s, you know, you achieved your objective in that. And I - yes I got some things out of it so it’s a closed issue. You know, but anything else we discuss beyond that - then that’s, um, objectives - my objectives are hazy at best. I don’t really have any objectives. It’s like, yeah, I have concerns about it but, um, but until I decide, uh, whether those concerns are legitimate or whether, um, whether I have anything else I wanna get outta that information then there’s no reason for me to talk about it. Especially not at this point because I mean it really - in the scope of the situation that I’m in, not really that much time has gone by. I mean I still don’t even have answers on stuff that we were talking about months ago. I mean that’s me, I don’t have those answers yet - I don’t have ‘em.
FELDIS Are - are you talking about discussions that we’ve been having about other crimes? That you don’t have answers to something?
KEYES Uh, partially, yeah, I mean - but…
BELL From us?
KEYES That’s not, uh, you know, like I say there’s - there’s some things that, you know, we can’t talk about and, uh, and but, yeah, there is - anyway it’s neither here nor there. It’ll happen it’s just (chuckles) I don’t know.
BELL And your talking about - you’re deciding how ultimately the information would get from - from you to us and how…
KEYES Well that’s another…
BELL Besides you just telling us how…
KEYES Right, that’s another issue too. Is, uh, is I may have some options as far as that goes. And how to get you at least some information without, uh…
FELDIS Well and that’s what we try to give you. But we - we tried to give you that ability…
BELL Yeah, that was our idea.
FELDIS The plan was you tell us, you know, the - where in New York so we can work with them and get their assurances in that and I’m already starting those processes. But we just need to move them forward a little bit. Doesn’t get - it doesn’t…
KEYES Well, I know (chuckles). Um, no I’m not - I’m not on New York’s attorney schedule or anybody else.
FELDIS No this - this was Israel KEYES schedule. That’s what I thought. It was your schedule of…
KEYES No I don’t have a schedule. I, you know…
FELDIS Okay, well that’s different than what I understood. Because you told us, I want it to…
KEYES No you…
FELDIS … move quickly, I wanna keep…
KEYES Yeah, if you’re talking about my ultimate schedule, yeah. But that’s kind of a ways off right now so. I’m just say - I’ve been saying like week to week, month to month, I don’t have a schedule right now. I don’t have anything to gain from it so.
FELDIS I - I - I - I thought you did have a schedule. When you say a ways off, now I don’t know what you’re talking about. ‘Cause month to month is what’s happening now basically. We’re - we’re moving at - we - we’ve gone from moving at a fairly, you know, reasonable pace to being month to month and six months is gonna pass and then a year is gonna pass, and then a year and a half and two years. You know, and I’m tell - I’m offering you an opportunity now to move that more quickly and I’d like to start with, uh, you know, not even start I’d just like to move forward on New York because it’s gonna move everything - the pace of everything more quickly. Which I what I though you wanted. If you tell me differently, you say, I - I don’t care how long anything takes anymore then I understand, that’s different.
KEYES No I do - I do care about how long things take. I just, uh, um, first of all I don’t know what time has to do with any of the crimes that - any information that I give you because, um, if you think I want to be indicted or charged with any of these other crimes then you’re wrong. I mean…
FELDIS You’ve told us that. We’re trying to avoid that, right? We’re trying to…
KEYES Right so I don’t…
FELDIS …avoid that by controlling it.
KEYES So I don’t understand how giving information is gonna…
FELDIS Well let’s just - let’s just say - what - what happens if, um, if Vermont says, you know, we thought this guy was cooperating. What if - what if they were to say, we’re gonna charge him. So than you get charged in Vermont.
KEYES Well they’re gonna have to wait their turn aren’t they?
FELDIS But what - what happ - but how - so how long is that gonna take, right? I - I - that’s what I’m trying to say.
KEYES That’s what my concern is.
FELDIS Yeah, so right now we’re con - they’re not - not charging but what do you think? Explain to me what do you think would happen if they do charge? If - if - if - if, you know, we say ISRAEL just says you guys do whatever you gotta do and then they were to go forward and we lose control. What do you think would happen with that?
KEYES Well I assume that - I don’t - I don’t know for sure. I have - I assume there’s a few different things that could happen, uh, none of which are good for me - from my perspective so.
FELDIS That’s what I’m trying to tell you, you know, is - is, uh, working with your goals it seems to be in your best interest to move forward with New York so that Vermont doesn’t charge. ‘Cause is Vermont charges…
FELDIS …then, you know…
KEYES Well, statistically that makes things less likely to go my way. Because, uh, the more attorneys, the more crimes are involved in this, the more likely it is that one of the states is gonna get fed up and say, we’re charging him.
FELDIS Well, you know, we’ve already - we’ve already demonstrated to you what we could do and explain how it works from our end. Because I don’t think Vermont - Vermont could take as long as they wanna take if they charge. You know, they can take their case as long as they wanna take it. And, you know, what happens then? To your goals?
KEYES I don’t know, what happens then?
FELDIS To your goals? What happens to your goals if Vermont…
KEYES I assume that puts me in limbo until they get their crack at me (chuckles). At least I’ve heard of that happening before, I don’t know.
FELDIS So do - do you want that?
KEYES Of course I don’t want that. You already know what I want.
FELDIS Well that’s why what - what I guess we’re just miscommunicating [sic] then ‘cause I thought - that’s what I understood it and that’s why we’ve offered you this plan to control how things progress with Vermont and just using New York as the neighboring state, right? So we - we’ve got a way to - to control things now if - if we all say, that’s not gonna work do what you want Vermont then we don’t control. They’re gonna take as long as they take in Vermont, you know, and I’m sure they’ll be talking to New York then. And what’s that - then we don’t - and we don’t control it right?
KEYES Right. No I - I’ve accepted the fact that we don’t control…
FELDIS Well we…
KEYES None of us control what happens in Vermont.
FELDIS Well I think we - I thought that…
KEYES Or you do (chuckles).
FELDIS I thought this letter that they sent was a - was a - was a pretty amazing thing.
KEYES No it was good - it was good.
FELDIS A pretty amazing thing and - and we, you know, we really worked at this and they’re with us. But if they go away then they do whatever they gotta do as long as that takes. They don’t really care what ISRAEL’s opinion is and then New York comes to them - their neighbor and says, neighbor you know, we got a problem in New York, uh, we’re Vermont. Vermont says well your problem is our problem were simpatico together we all got problems and this is now ISRAEL has no control. And - and that’s what I was trying to avoid based upon what you told me from the get go and you’ve been honest about your goals but now I’m like well…
KEYES Right well I - no…
FELDIS …why are we misunderstanding you?
KEYES The fine - the fine print in that letter is that at their directive they can reassume control - at your directive. You - I mean you - all you have to do is say, well he’s - ISRAEL’s not giving us anymore information, do what you gotta do.
FELDIS Did you expect something different? I mean really - though there’s nothing else we could…
KEYES (Chuckles) I don’t know what I expected honestly.
FELDIS I mean there - there - there’s nothing else we can do. We can’t make - they would never sign something…
BELL They would never (unintelligible).
FELDIS They never gonna agree to something that says…
KEYES I understand that.
FELDIS Yeah, so - so…
KEYES I know I don’t have any rights in this situation. I - all I have is information. So now you’re upset with me that I wanna control the information so I…
FELDIS No I’m not - I’m not upset - upset with you. I said I’m - I started here by saying, you know, it’s more depressing and yet there’s frustration. But I mean I - I - I…
KEYES There’s gonna be a lot of frustration before this is all over but I mean there - it’s already been years of frustration for a lot of people. So they’re gonna have to learn to live with it for a little bit longer.
FELDIS No that’s a different - that’s a different issue. I - I - the frustration and depression is based upon what - you getting what you want and I’m thinking we’re giving ISRAEL what - what he wants on his time frame and I just explained to you what I foresee would happen if - if the cooperation breaks down on the CURRIER’s. And we just said, we don’t want that because we don’t want that - Vermont to take over and take as long as they want and talk to New York and do whatever they can. We don’t want that so what are all the - there’s two choices it seems like.
KEYES Yeah, I don’t - I don’t know how - like I say, that’s one of the issues I’m waiting to hear back on is what is the most likely path that Vermont would take? Um, because obviously I’ve got other problems right now. So, uh, so I don’t know what their hypothetical time line could be if they get fed up and decided to go their own way on that. I don’t know that. I’m not a lawyer. So, I mean, um, yeah, like I say I’m sure there could be a whole range of things that could happen with that - with the information that I’ve already given them.
FELDIS Well and normally - normally, you know, state prosecutions or other federal prosecutions don’t move quick - that quickly. So…
FELDIS …we know that if Vermont charges it’s going to be a lengthy process. And they’re gonna get in touch with New York and New York’s gonna, you know, have their input about what Vermont does as well. And they’re neighboring states and they work together and they’re gonna say, hey ISRAEL had his chance, Alaska had it’s chance. They said they - they said that they were moving forward. You know, I - this is not - this is - I’m just trying to lay out to you what I foresee related to the CURRIER’s and etcetera. That’s - that’s alternative, B as far as I’m concerned. Alternative, A was following on the path we’ve been following. So doing nothing is a choice - doing nothing is basically saying I choose alternative, B. Which is the longer road and the less control.
BELL And I think A and B goes hand in hand for the - for law enforcement. I’ve told you many times what option B for law enforcement is. And I know you say we’ll be back and you may be right but at some point and time when people see that there’s an impasse then they’re gonna say well let’s try it. He may be right, maybe - maybe we’re not gonna find anything but we have to look. Wouldn’t be - we wouldn’t be doing due diligence if we didn’t try with - with…
BELL …the investigative leads that we do have. So…
FELDIS So - so A or B? (Chuckles).
BELL And I know you - I mean the - the B is just is pu - is huge public media and public wise. And, you know, I just don’t wanna damage any relationship that we have if we have to go with plan B.
KEYES Well I mean if that’s your only option then that’s…
BELL It’s not.
KEYES …your only option.
BELL I mean it’s not our only option right now, right? We have plan, A we thought.
BELL I mean you realize that. You realize that this isn’t going the way - this isn’t just going like a normal investigation would go and that there’s certain things we would do in this type of situation that we’re not doing.
BELL You know, and all those are very public and very unpleasant and…
KEYES Well I mean, yeah, you’re right. I - I mean if that’s - if that’s what it’s come down to it’s like either I give you information today or you go your own way with it then that’s what it’s come down to. Do what you gotta do because I’m not - I’m not giving up any more information until I find out what’s going on. That’s a couple more issues so.
BELL When do you foresee that kinda thing happening?
KEYES Well if it doesn’t happen this week then there’s going to be another meeting.
BELL So are you telling us that we should - that we can - next week someti - we can hold off and next week sometime re - re - re, uh…
BELL Address this issue.
KEYES Yeah, if you gonna hear one way or the other next week. It’s gonna be - there’s, uh, yeah, (chuckles).
BELL I mean ‘cause that’s something that we can - that I can go with and say he’s got some issues that he’s working through and…
KEYES Well it’s the same issues that talked about last time it’s just nothing has happened with ‘em so (chuckles).
KEYES Um, yeah, and I’m, uh, not - I’m hesitant to, uh, tackle all the issues on my own. I thought I was gonna have some assistance but…
FELDIS And if you want assistance I mean the judge, everybody’s told you - you get whatever assistance you want and that’s your business.
FELDIS And we’re not gonna - just be really - I wanna be really clear that is up to you and that’s your choice. To do that is - we all wanna make sure you have every opportunity to do that. So if you want that - do it and - and…
FELDIS …that’s your business.
KEYES No I - I - I know.
FELDIS That’s clear, we - we - we’ve - we’ve just been coming to you being honest about where we are in the process. No one has laid down an ultimatum yet, we’re trying to avoid that.
KEYES No I - that’s good. That’s what I want to avoid too.
KEYES It’s just a…
FELDIS I just thought if I came in here and - and…
BELL You can see we’re not - I mean we’re telling you that - you’re smart enough, you know that it is what it is. What I’m telling and what he’s telling you is reality of this.
BELL You know, I mean we’re not…
PAYNE You’re familiar with - go ahead.
KEYES Oh I was…
FELDIS Well what do you wanna talk about today ISRAEL?
KEYES (Chuckles) I don’t know.
KEYES I’ve just been thinking that hypothetically, uh, best route for me to give you all the information you need might be, uh, kinda like a last minute kinda thing (chuckle). So I’m not around for the aftermath (chuckles).
FELDIS Well do you think that’s realistic?
KEYES Do I think it’s realistic? I don’t know. It seems to me like that would kinda be my call. Whether or not it’s realistic.
FELDIS Well but, okay, I mean like I said if Vermont goes forward it - it’s not gonna be your call or our call what Vermont does and they don’t - they don’t have any reason to move at your pace.
KEYES (Chuckles) yeah I know.
FELDIS You know what I mean? And right now we’ve been working together so…
KEYES Well I know that’s…
FELDIS I kinda doubt Vermont is gonna…
BELL Well and the other…
FELDIS …play that game. I doubt their gonna - I mean I’m telling you from even the US Attorneys perspective down here. I doubt they’re gonna play that game that says, uh, you know, we’re gonna - we’re gonna move forward in Vermont really quickly on the CURRIER’s, make sure that gets all wrapped up. And, uh, you know, we’re gonna give him what he wants, uh, and then but because we can’t get the last minute - he’s gonna, you know, tell us everything.
BELL Or - or, I - I guess the - my opinion on that would be with the issue - with the issue with doing it something like that would be - would we get, or would you be able to provide us with enough information that we need? And would - would that leave some type of doubt the way - being done like that rather than up front cooperating every step of the way and giving us the - the details that we need to make the closure rather than right there at the end when all we’re getting is maybe a name and a place and we might not be able to complete the closure, um, all the way and there might be some, you know, who - I just - food for thought. Would there be…
KEYES Right - no and I understand what you’re saying. My concern isn’t so much with that I, uh, my concern is about keeping it - things under wraps for the duration of my incarceration. However long that may be. And, uh, if I have to do that by giving out a little information at a time and, you know, continuing to work with you or whoever else if - if I - if it seems like that’s gonna keep working then that’s what I’ll do. You know, even if it means more drama that way I guess. But, um, but, yeah, it’s - it’s still better than the alternative, you know, of having…
FELDIS I think that’s logical. I - why don’t we - I think we should just take a break for a couple minutes and (unintelligible) I wanted to think about a couple things and you can have your coffee and do you need the bathroom?
KEYES Yeah, if I could.
BELL Gonna break.
PAYNE: Alright Israel, do you want to use the restroom (unintelligible)?
FELDIS All right ISRAEL we’re just picking up where we left off, um, ‘cause you said something that I want to respond to - I think the last thing you said. And - and then I also wanna respond to one of the - something you said earlier about hey at the last minute - this idea that you seemed that you were interested in that at the last minute you could just tell us everything, right? At the end of all of this with the CURRIER’s you could just tell us everything. So let’s use the CURRIER case in Vermont. You know, as we just explained we have option, A - A and B if we’re looking at it that way. A is we, you know, get - get information, we keep Vermont on board, we get some more information, not everything but we get some more information we keep Vermont on board and we keep moving forward on a pretty timely basis…
FELDIS …with the CURRIER’s. Option, B we - we all kinda felt was, you know, we lose control of Vermont because we don’t get, uh, anything about New York, Vermont moves forward and, you know, the US Attorneys office down there in Vermont says, look he’s not cooperating we’re gonna charge him federally. The state says he’s not cooperating, we’re gonna charge him state wise. That’s - that’s kinda what - what could happen on plan, B right?
FELDIS I mean am I just - just are you with me so far?
KEYES I - I’m - I take your word for it, yeah. (Chuckles).
FELDIS ‘Kay, well I - you know, if you think that’s - that I’m telling you something that I - that I - that’s what I believe are - are two possible options here with the CURRIER’s. Um, the - the moving forward option or the, you know, the stalling out option in which case Vermont moves forward federally in state. Um, now the state of Vermont does not even have a death penalty but they would have an interest as you can tell from their office. You know, but for your cooperation and our working with them the state of Vermont would wanna charge you, right? You could understand that?
FELDIS So the state of Vermont charges you. That - that’s gonna be a lengthy process to go forward with in Vermont. So that - that’s why option B is a - is a lengthy process. And they’re - and they’re not - no one’s going to agree - either the US Attorney’s office in Vermont or the Vermont State Prosecutors are not gonna agree to any kind of a situation where they say, hey great we’re gonna move things along quickly and get - get ISRAEL a sentence. You know, whether he wants the death penalty, whether he wants life in prison whatever. We’re gonna go ahead and move forward with that, um, with the hope that at the last minute he’s gonna give us all this information, right? They’re just not gonna enter into that kind of agreement. I just wanted you to know my thoughts on that. I don’t speak for the US Attorney’s office in Vermont and I don’t speak for the state prosecutors on that issue but, you know, I think the reality is they’re not gonna sort of just move things forward quickly there with the promise - with the idea of a promise from you that you’ll - they’ll learn everything eventually. There gonna want that first right?
FELDIS I mean that seems like basic negotiating things. So that - does that make sense?
KEYES Yeah, I mean, um, the part you left out is that with option A is that if I continue to give them information is it’s - they can still do whatever they want as far as charging me.
FELDIS Well, look…
KEYES I don’t - they don’t have to give me their word on anything. I know…
FELDIS They don’t, but they have, and they’ve given me their word. And so I think what you said was very insightful like well if you don’t wanna move things quickly but you don’t want ‘em to be really slow - but quickly is in my opinion you tell us.
FELDIS And the slow is you tell us nothing. What you said at the very end when we took a break was, hey if I have to give you a little bit each step along the way to keep things moving I - that’s - that’s in the middle. Things will move they move as quickly, they wont move as slowly, but they’ll move. So I’m asking you then today to give us the name of the person in New York as a little something. It’s, you know, half a card you can rip in half, you give us the name, we move things forward.
KEYES It’s - no. It’s not half a (chuckles) card, it’s pretty - no.
FELDIS Well I - you - you give us a name today I think we’ll be back here next week and you wont - you wont have heard a peep of that. Nobody will hear - have heard about it.
FELDIS And it keeps things moving. You know, we’ll be sitting here next week you won’t even heard a thing. We’ll sit in the week after you won’t have heard a thing about it. ‘Kay, because we’re gonna live up to our end of things because that’s what was our commitment to keep that - to follow your goals. You - you - here’s what can happen today. You give me the name, I write it down, I don’t ask any more questions, we all have some lunch, talk about whatever you wanna talk about, you have a cigar, uh, you know, we can talk about the weather, what’s going on in Anchorage, you know, whatever. All I - I’ll just write down the name, we have lunch, you have a cigar.
KEYES Well I mean it sounds tempting but no I’m not - I’m not giving the name. I’m not giving any names on anything until I - until I find out what my options are.
FELDIS That - that’s fine. You do what you need to do. We’ll see if it changes next week. I mean I think we’ll be in the same position next week where we are today. And so by not acting we’re going towards plan B that’s all. You know, it’s not a - it’s not a threat or anything like that it’s just saying, you know, I gave plan A - path A and path B.
FELDIS By doing nothing we kinda - we’re kinda making a choice
KEYES Right. No I know it’s - it’s a reality.
FELDIS And - and, you know, I - I - I - I - I think you can take control of the situation today and let me write down that name. That - that’s the control you have. You write down the name and you see that next week nothing different has happened. It is now there - it hasn’t impacted you. It’s just allowed us to stay on path A It was - it’s a decision that you can make today.
KEYES No I think what - I appreciate what you’re saying but here’s what I think we should do. Is set up a meeting probably later next week - a meeting just like this. If I don’t get the information that I need by, I don’t know, like I say - the next couple days then what’s gonna happen is you’re probably gonna get an email of a different sort of meeting that we’re gonna have.
FELDIS ‘Kay, that’s up to you. So you’re telling me, you know, we’re gonna meet, I will - we’ll come and meet with you next week and…
KEYES Yeah, I mean I - I…
FELDIS …something’s gonna…
KEYES …assume that you’re gonna wanna do that regardless. But I’m saying that, um, yeah, it’s been - I mean what - what was the last time I was over here it was like a week ago and I was - and I had already been trying to get the info - yeah, so I mean like I say if it doesn’t - if I don’t get the information I need this week like the avenues that I’m trying to get it then - then obviously that’s not working and, uh, I’ll do something else.
FELDIS That’s up to you - that’s up to you. That’s your choice.
KEYES No I, yeah, I know. It’s - I’m just saying it’s a little bit, uh, from my perspective it’s, uh, there’s several different things going on and trying to…
FELDIS We’re - we’re…
KEYES …trying to keep ‘em all related in my head and then, uh, trying to keep everything moving on all of ‘em separate from each other but still in the same direction is not an easy task apparently. So, but, um, yeah, that’s - that’ll at least give me some more time to get the information that I need. And in the mean time you, um, I - I had requested this from other avenues but you had mentioned that there was news from Vermont - was there a press release done or something? I know that they were coming up on the anniversary for their disappearance.
FELDIS And that’s what we wanted to tell you and why we wanted to meet with you today. Tomorrow is the anniversary.
KEYES Oh is it?
FELDIS And, um, so right now we have nothing to take to them. So what I wanted to accomplish today is - is to be able to tell them we got a name. I’m not gonna tell them the name. I wanted to say Vermont we got a name, stick with this, we know it’s the anniversary you got a lot of pressure tomorrow.
FELDIS Stick with us.
KEYES No - well that was a concern I had because I know that - that’s like the - the media makes a big deal out of anniversaries (chuckles).
FELDIS Well and they’re gonna be - they’re all over them. I know that and that’s what Vermont has wanted to know. I don’t need to give Vermont the name, I just need to tell them trust me he gave me the name. They’re not gonna know the name. I’m not gonna give it ‘em, they don’t have a need to know but that gives them a reason to - to stand firm.
KEYES Well they already have a reason. I’m not - I’m not gonna give ‘em that just so they have another reason.
FELDIS Well you’re not giving it to - to them. You’re giving it to me.
KEYES Well at your - at your behest or whatever but.
FELDIS ‘Kay well that’s what we wanted you to know about so, you know, look…
KEYES Oh I - trust me I’ll know about it (chuckles). I don’t care - it doesn’t matter how many miles away I imagine if my name pops up I’m pretty sure it’ll (unintelligible) media you hear it so I’ll imagine I’ll hear about it here (chuckles).
PAYNE What’s - what’s Vermont’s reason to stand firm?
KEYES I don’t know.
PAYNE Well you said they already have a reason so I’m curious as to what that reason is.
KEYES I don’t - I don’t know. Uncommon sense I guess. I’m sure that at this point they wanna give themselves a pat on the back but frankly they don’t deserve one so, you know, that’s their reason. If they were being honest with themselves they would know they couldn’t give themselves a pat on the back for that so.
FELDIS They’re gonna say hey if - if ISRAEL was being honest with himself he would just tell you guys and move this thing along. That’s, you know, their reaction too, you know, uh, I mean…
KEYES No. I’m probably more honest with myself than anybody else (chuckles).
FELDIS Is it - are you - you’re just looking to hi - I mean are you looking to hide the information? Is that what I’m getting now?
FELDIS That your looking just to hide it?
KEYES Well I mean…
FELDIS ‘Cause that’s different.
KEYES I - look I’ll give it to you if - especially if there’s something in it for me but, um…
FELDIS Well it’s…
KEYES It’d be better if, uh, my name wasn’t attached to it from here ‘til eternity or whatever (chuckles).
PAYNE And we’ve told you before, we don’t have a problem with that. We’ve demonstrated repeatedly that, uh, we have the ability to greatly influence that.
KEYES Right. No I - I - for now, yeah, I agree with you. I - I mean, yeah, if - I think we can keep - I - I think I could probably tell you everything today and being the case that it is I’m sure we could probably keep stuff under wraps for what - a year, two years, whatever. I’m not worried about that.
FELDIS So then what’s the…
BELL Well there you go.
FELDIS …what’s the deal, you know?
KEYES I’m worried about after that. Eventually my name is gonna be attached to it. So if there’s a way that, uh, I can protect myself from that, uh, and still get you guys what you need then I’m gonna do it.
PAYNE That - that…
KEYES I already, look - I don’t need to be punished for these other things that I haven’t talked to you about yet because, yeah, all these other sta - they’re not gonna - they can’t prosecute a dead man so it’s like what…
FELDIS Do you think anyone’s gonna really - do you think Vermont charge - say Vermont charges you for the CURRIER’s do you think they’re really gonna give you the death penalty knowing that there’s more things out there? Do you think they’re gonna say, ah, you know, let just move forward.
KEYES Right so see - I know I’m…
FELDIS You’re in a catch 22.
KEYES I get your point exactly. I already fucked up so (chuckles).
FELDIS You’re - you’re in a catch 22 and we’re offering you is, uh, you know we’re offering you what is I think your best bet. That’s your call buddy but, you know, you’re in a catch 22 because Vermont US Attorney’s office, Vermont state isn’t gonna rush forward and give you what you want knowing that there’s more information.
KEYES Well, yeah, right I know. They can’t give me what I want anyway so.
FELDIS Well, uh, you know, they could charge you federally in Vermont with the - with the car jacking resulting in the CURRIER’s death. They haven’t done that because they’ve trusted us that we’re…
FELDIS …coordinating. They’re not gonna rush out there and give you some sentence whatever it may be while you’re still - while there’s still information out there about unsolved crimes. We’re - we’re offering what I th - see that’s your catch 22. And I wanted to make sure we understood that right?
KEYES No I, yeah, I - I get it.
FELDIS You know, and, um, and we’re trying to work on the timing, to control the media, the control - you control how the story comes out, this is your opportunity. You control the story, you control the timing, you control the media. And by timing I mean moving it quickly. The other alternative B is takes forever possibly, um, you don’t control any of the rest of this stuff. You’re - you may be right they never get it but then they’re not gonna just move forward knowing - with the unknown. The middle ground I think is what you suggested at the end. You give me a name, I write it down, you have lunch and a cigar and we all meet again whenever you want to meet again. And you’re not gonna hear anything about it between now and then.
KEYES Nope. No I’m not - I’m not giving a name today.
FELDIS Is Washington a better state?
KEYES No. No I, uh, I think it’s better we tackle one thing at a time but I don’t wanna - I don’t wanna go in - into that New York trip anymore until, uh, until I find out what’s going on with this other stuff. So and, yeah, I’m also a little concerned about what they say tomorrow. Will be interesting to see what - if anything comes out. What they - if they’re able to resist the temptation to…
FELDIS Do you wanna have any control on that?
KEYES I don’t have any control on that.
FELDIS Sure you do.
KEYES I - I could tell you everything today and you - they could still do - say whatever they want in media.
FELDIS Yeah, in theory that’s possible but do you think they would? Do you think that if I have a…
KEYES I have no idea.
FELDIS Do you think if I go to them - call them after we get done meeting and I say, I got a piece of information, I got a name. I’m not telling you what it is, but he’s living up to his end of it. Do you think they’re really gonna…
KEYES My suspicion is that no they wouldn’t say anything about it if they - if you told them not to. But I’m just saying from a realistic point of view there’s, you know, there’s no guarantees.
FELDIS There’s no guar - I agree with you. Look there’s no guarantees, we don’t know with the media sniffing around and what they…
FELDIS What they know. We - we can’t guarantee that. We - we’ve never been talking about guarantee’s here, we’re just working with the best we can do.
KEYES Yeah, I know.
FELDIS And, um…
BELL And, you know, once we go - creep towards plan B, plan A might not be - will be more difficult to get back on.
KEYES Well I mean maybe, I don’t know. That’s, uh, that’s not really my call. That’s more your call.
FELDIS We respectfully disagree.
FELDIS We think it’s your call. Um, I can’t do anything with a name. Doesn’t - I mean it - other than buy the good will of the other people who can say he’s continuing to cooperate and we’re getting - we’re getting a little bit, we’re moving in the right direction, we’re gonna stay on plan A Other than that, we can’t do anything with it.
FELDIS They’re not gonna find any - they’re not gonna find the body from what you’ve told us so.
KEYES No I’m not - I’m not worried about it.
PAYNE So if you’re not worried about it - it sounds like you have nothing to lose.
KEYES Well by giving, yeah, that’s probably not - it’s true the body is - the name doesn’t give you the body but…
FELDIS Yeah, I mean I…
KEYES There’s a lot of other things.
FELDIS I’m asking you for the most minimal thing that I think keeps us going in right direction. Now we meet again next week.
FELDIS You know?
KEYES That’s fine. I - like I said, I already told these guys today when they picked me up I’m not - nothing is - actually nothing has changed since last meeting on my end. I don’t have any new informa - you know, nothing has happened that I wanted to happen so…
FELDIS Okay, we’re just asking you from our perspective if there’s something we can do on other crimes, uh, we’ve done it and from our perspective I’m talking to you about other crimes, we’re standing still and sliding backwards and it - and it’s kind of as I said - let’s just call it depressing and frustrating. But that’s what - about other crimes, you make your decisions. We told you what we thought could help today, I told you that.
KEYES Yeah, I’m sure it’ll help somebody (chuckles).
FELDIS Well I think it - I think it would help you.
KEYES No it wont help me.
FELDIS Stay on our plan. It’s the catch 22.
KEYES Not in the long run.
FELDIS Well you - you’re in - you’re in a catch 22 about that.
KEYES Yeah, I know - I know.
FELDIS And, uh…
KEYES But that doesn’t mean I’m not gonna try and manage it so.
FELDIS Yeah, we’re giving you the managed approach right now.
KEYES I, um, yeah, this just - I just have too many unanswered questions right now so.
PAYNE All right, well in the interest of, uh, you know, not wasting everybody’s time and stuff, uh, you said you wanted to meet late next week. Uh, do you wanna pick a day right now? Thursday, Friday? Both days or late next week, do you have a preference?
KEYES No, um, shouldn’t - shouldn’t matter.
BELL Week from today, Thursday?
FELDIS All right.
PAYNE All right hang tight ISRAEL, we’ll be back (unintelligible).