BELL - Officer Jeff Bell, Anchorage Police Department
GOEDEN - Special Agent Jolene Goeden, FBI
RUSSO - Assistant U.S. Attorney, Frank Russo
CURTNER - Attorney for Defendant Richard Curtner
KEYES - Israel Keyes
RUSSO (Unintelligible). KAT’s (phonetic) got that?
BELL Yeah, I don’t know.
GOEDEN What’s that?
BELL Do you someone pushed the button in there?
GOEDEN Do I know what?
BELL Push the button in the other room?
GOEDEN Yeah KAT did, yeah, it’s on - it’s on.
RUSSO Morning ISRAEL.
RUSSO How you doing?
KEYES All right.
RUSSO Some bad days? All right - considering? Uh, we’re gonna do our normal advisement.
BELL Um, I - I have to read you your rights. First thing I wanna ask you is we didn’t, uh, interrupt anything over at the jail today did we?
BELL No meeting with your lawyer or anything? You have the right to remain silent. You understand that ISRAEL?
BELL Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Do you understand that?
BELL You have the right to talk to a lawyer and have him present with you while you’re being questioned. Do you understand that?
BELL If you can not afford to hire a lawyer one will be appointed to represent you before any questioning if you wish. Do you understand that?
BELL You can decide at any time to exercise these rights and not answer any questions or make any statements. Do you understand that?
BELL Okay, also, um, I understand that you have standby counsel for crimes other than KOENIG. Mister CURTNER and Miss WALSH and possibly Miss - Mister LARRANAGA Would you like any of those here today?
BELL Okay, and we’re not here to talk to you about the - the KOENIG case just crimes other than that, okay?
RUSSO ‘Kay I think, uh, they had some things to discuss with you. Obviously, um, you know they wanted to chat with you about some things and then I wanted to kinda talk to ya about, uh, where we are on the - on the Vermont thing.
KEYES Yeah, I didn’t, um, they wouldn’t let me bring my copy of the letter so there’s definitely some things we need to go over about that.
RUSSO Okay, well I’ve got a copy.
BELL Who wouldn’t let you? The jail?
KEYES Yeah, it’s…
KEYES They don’t - they don’t like it when I…
BELL Leave with stuff?
KEYES …carry stuff around with me (chuckles).
RUSSO You guys wanna chat about what you need to chat about I can…
GOEDEN Okay, we can…
BELL Afraid of - afraid of a paper cut?
RUSSO You need to mark up the letters, you know, it’s sort of like you have some requests on it?
KEYES No we - I mean we can just go through it I don’t…
KEYES I already went through it so I don’t…
RUSSO All right. So you (unintelligible) grab a water here somewhere.
GOEDEN Okay, I can make an extra copy for you too.
GOEDEN Um, I just want to let you know, I know you weren’t real concerned about the boat but I told you when we left last time that’s I’d let - give you a list of what was actually taken from the boat.
KEYES All right.
GOEDEN And what they do is they print out a receipt. I don’t have the actual receipt, this is just an internal document but I can show you on here what they took. Um, total of 19 items seized but some of those are swabs, they’re not actual things.
GOEDEN So unknown materials these I’m assuming are - were like pieces of thing - or like stains that may have been blood or something like that - that they chipped up and stuff ‘cause that’s based on where they were taken…
KEYES Oh, all right.
GOEDEN …from the engine area. Um, fibers and fragments same kinda thing. Um, I don’t know what that is. I can req - ask about that ball of unknown material. My guess is it’s probably a hair.
KEYES They don’t know what it is either (chuckles).
GOEDEN Hopefully the lab will know.
BELL That’s why they call it a ball of unknown material (chuckles).
BELL Maybe you could shed some light on that if you know. (Chuckles).
GOEDEN Do you know what the ball of unknown material is?
KEYES I would have to see it.
GOEDEN (Chuckles), um, they had possible (unintelligible) and another material twice down here. So two different things were taken. (Unintelligible), um, rope the anchors with the line, other rope. A swab and that swab was taken from a seat cushion. Screws, these were all in the back area…
KEYES Oh, okay.
GOEDEN …by the carpeting. Or in that area in the back by the motor. There’s hair as well, um, more swabs.
GOEDEN Same kinda thing. That’s just that piece of carpeted wood by the - or the trim that they took.
GOEDEN (Unintelligible) took as well. Some more rope and they took the cable ties. I think they had already probably had these before we had talked last time so those were already…
KEYES All right.
GOEDEN They already seized those so, um, that’s what they took. And then I’ll get - eventually I’ll get a actual receipt paper if you want that you can have it. Questions about any of this?
RUSSO I’m gonna get, uh, a copy of this.
BELL So you can mark it up.
RUSSO So, um, while she’s making a copy anything, you know, you wanna discuss general.
KEYES Any what?
RUSSO Anything you wanna discuss generally about the letter? About any concerns you have?
KEYES Well, um, yeah, uh, one of my main concerns right now is, uh, trying to get a handle on what the process is gonna be if this goes to CCU, they approve one or all of my cases for the death penalty, it comes back and then my understanding at this point is it goes to a judge and they decide - make a decision as to whether or not to pursue it from there?
RUSSO Uh, again like I said I, you know, I can’t give you legal advice but here’s my understanding of the process. Um, in terms of the notice itself it gets filed, all right? With the court.
RUSSO After it gets filed with the court, um, then you know, obviously you’re free to plead guilty in your main case, or go to trial, or the CURR - the CURRIER case whatever - whatever you want.
RUSSO And, uh, then - let’s assume we’re talking about the CURRIER case. There would be a sentencing set and at the sentencing I think there would be, you know, either - like I said there’s an option to - to both sides agree to do a judge sentencing or a jury sentencing. And then that would go to that and then ultimately the jury or the judge is the one who would have to impose the death penalty.
RUSSO Or life in prison.
KEYES Okay, so - okay, so the - it goes to the judge or the jury sentencing, either one.
KEYES Um, at the sentencing it’s a public hearing?
KEYES Either way it has to be a public hearing?
RUSSO I think, um, yeah. I mean mo - most of it, you know, now there’s exceptions for, um, public hearings where we can seal parts of ‘em. And part of the, uh, you know, the - the methods we’ve used to kind of close portions of sentencing’s in the past is to apprise the court of cooperation efforts on behalf of the defendant. Um, if we’ve got a legitimate law enforcement basis to close the public out we can do that. Now in order to do that we’d hafta, you know, get approval from main justice. Um, but, you know, it’s happened in the past. It’s happened virtually in every case that, uh, I’ve had cooperators in. Usually they’re - they don’t want their cooperation known, um, because it could endanger them, um, or you know…
RUSSO …we certainly don’t want…
KEYES Okay, well my concern…
KEYES …is, uh, like I’ve said from the beginning. There’s certain aspects of the things that I’ve done that I don’t - I would prefer never became public. Um, and from what I’ve been hearing lately at something as serious as the death penalty hearing they want to review all of the evidence before they make a decision whether it’s…
RUSSO When you say they, you mean jury or…
KEYES …a jury or a judge.
KEYES Jury or a judge.
KEYES And obviously in everything we’ve discussed there’s a lot of that - I mean if they’re gonna review all of the evidence then that’s primarily gonna be in - interviews that we’ve done.
KEYES In which that information is gonna be in that evidence.
KEYES And so if it’s a public hearing it’s gonna be - all that’s gonna become public and that’s what exactly - what I didn’t want...
KEYES …from the beginning. You know, I, um, certain aspects of this that, you know, yeah there’s no way around it but, you know…
KEYES …as far as different things that were done with the bodies and the sexual assault stuff - that type of stuff I just don’t obv - I don’t see a, you know, if - if that has to be part of the hearing then I would (chuckles) we gotta figure out something different. I mean I don’t…
RUSSO Mm-hm. Well I got sort of two possible solutions I’ve been thinking about, um, if it gets to that point. You know, one with respect to stuff that you’re working with us on like, you know, other crimes other, you know, bodies, um, and they’re still investigating to corroborate your confessions for those murders. You know, we can certainly seek approval to close that part of the sentencing to the extent you’re talking about those. All right now look I - I don’t know whether or not - there’s no guarantees whether or not main justice would grant that. Um, the second portion of it is, you know, we control the evidence that we present. So the government’s gotta present the evidence and, you know, maybe there’s some way to kind of address both of our concerns here by circumscribing, by limiting the amount of stuff that’s introduced into court for that. So I’ve been toying with that idea, um, now obviously there’s a - there’s a catch 22 to that right?
RUSSO The worse things, you know, appear to the jury or the judge the more likely it is you’re gonna get what you want.
Background Noise (door opening)
RUSSO In the context of the CURRIER case, all right? Thanks.
Background Noise (door closing)
RUSSO Um, but I think that there is maybe a way around that. But in order to kinda get around that what we’d have to do is we’d hafta have at least the basic information on all of the murders you’ve committed. So basically it’s not like, hey, you know, we’re sort of going with, uh, quantity rather than quality…
RUSSO …of the murders sort of. And if we can corroborate those, you know, I think there may be a way to kind of get you what you want but also, um, you know, obviously we’d get what we want then too. That would have to be part of the negotiation. Now these are just thoughts that I’ve had but…
KEYES Right. Here - here’s the problem with that scenario is like you said, I might get what I want, you definitely get what you want.
RUSSO Mm-hm. No - I mean look, you know, I think you said it before in - in other context of, you know, uh, if people hear the things you’ve done, you know, I don’t think, you know, any jury would have any doubts about what they’d do. Um, I can’t promise what a jury is gonna do, I can never do that.
KEYES Right but that was ah - that was me operating under the maybe somewhat naive assumption that as long as I was giving you all this information there was no reason for it to become public.
RUSSO Mm-hm - mm-hm.
KEYES Whereas if I - I already know that if you go out and you find out this stuff on your own then…
KEYES …all kinds of stuff becomes public.
RUSSO Well maybe all kinds of stuff, I mean, it would have to be a numbers thing. I mean right now the way - on the way we’re going now, you know, let’s assume we don’t ever strike a deal on the CURRIER thing. Um, you know, yeah, then I think it does become public - some of this stuff. Then we’re forced to kinda go your way and - and you’re forc - forced to go, you know, your - your own way. We’ve gotta go our separate ways and we’ve gotta, you know, try our cases. I understand that, um, you know, I - I think now is the time to sort of strike a deal that would encompass all your activity. And then part of that - broker some deal about, you know, what we - we can introduce and what we can’t.
KEYES Well this is another pro - this is why I was pushing for, you know, a different type of meeting this week. But, um, you know, obviously there’s other things going on that I don’t - I don’t even know what’s going on.
Background Noise (cell phone voice command prompt)
RUSSO Oops sorry.
KEYES And I know we can’t talk about it.
KEYES But that’s an issue for me so.
RUSSO About - about other things that are going on in the process.
KEYES And I don’t - I don’t know what’s going on so.
RUSSO Yeah, I mean I, you know, obviously I can’t help you with that. That’s between you and your attorneys.
KEYES No - I know. I know, and that’s the problem. So I, you know, other - I don’t know what else to say about it other than that. But I - I - in regards to the CURRIER thing I went up through that letter several times and there’s nothing - first of all I was pretty ticked off just thinking back about the way things played out…
KEYES …with the whole Vermont thing in general. Um, I remember specifically before we even had, you know, before I gave you the location of that house or anything - I was like, “I’ll give you the location of this house but I don’t want the locals involved.”
KEYES I don’t want it - there - I - I - I - I - I didn’t see any reason to bring any - anyone back there in that area into the fold that - so to speak as to what was going on.
KEYES Because they didn’t have any clue anyway.
KEYES You know, and next thing I know there’s like articles in the paper like this big dig site going on.
KEYES You know, there - there was just - there was a lot more discreet ways to handle it. You know, so you - you got your information, you went - they went right away to the lead investigator on the case and, you know, my name got leaked out somehow way back then and then, you know, months later you dig and you dig, you never find…
KEYES …anything aside from what I gave you in the first place and then my name’s attached to it anyway.
RUSSO Mm-hm. Lemme tell you a little bit about - at least my perception of how things worked there. And I’ll tell you a little bit about the realities of law enforcement. You know, uh, if the FBI just kinda went in there and simply said like gang busters, “Hey locals you stay out of it, we’re handling this, we’re not telling you what’s going on.” That would be a political nightmare for them, okay? Given that they had the information and another agency was investigating. But they couldn’t do it and I think we’ve talked about that numerous times since then and that Vermont was a test case. And, you know, I think we’ve learned a lot from Vermont and we understood that the way that was handled back then, um, you know, we’d have to avoid in the future to keep both sides happy if we were gonna get continued information. Um, so, you know, that - that’s why - that’s the whole reason that we initially came up with, you know, this letter. Is to handle it a little bit differently and get Vermont to sort get on board with us. So, you know, we’re successful in getting the letter. Obviously some things happen that, you know, we were disappointed with too about your name getting leaked out.
BELL Yeah, you know we’re not - we’re not happy about the way that was handled either?
RUSSO Yeah. In fact, you know, there was a riff between us and Vermont for a while and we weren’t giving them information because of the fact we heard that it got leaked and so we were, you know, angry at them. We had like a - a video conference session with all the investigators from Vermont and all the prosecutors from Vermont and us and kinda hashed things out. And said, you know, obviously there’s been some problems. They agreed that, you know, look, you know, they’re on board with us, um, they’ve obviously got to consider the needs of the family but, you know, I think we hashed things out and, you know, things have worked much better. Especially like recently, you know, I mean to be able to control that press conference on the CURRIER’s and light of the possible settlement of other crimes, I think was a pretty remarkable feat that we were able to accomplish. But what I’m trying to do here is, all right obviously we can go with this. That was a way they kind of - where they even said in this initial letter that they would defer to us as to what charging would happen. And that was a way to kind of put the lid on things and kinda keep going quietly. All right I understand you didn’t go with this. So, you know, what we’re trying to do now is just simply revisit that in another way. Obviously that opportunity’s passed us by but there’s still this opportunity on the table. And, you know, I think the longer we wait on it, the more problematic it becomes because they’re more, you know, I - I’ve been avoiding calling Vermont since, you know, this week. I’ve just basically said, “Hey, uh, you know, he’s - he’s obviously getting some advice on the letter and I haven’t heard from them since Monday or Tuesday and I haven’t called her because I know their next question is gonna be all right where are we on the letter because we have to do something.” So, you know, this letter is an effort to try to, you know, keep everybody in line, keep Vermont in line, get you to some extent what you want and get us what we want. I know…
KEYES It doesn’t get me anything I want. It doesn’t get me anything that I’m not gonna get anyway. You’ve - you just said Vermont is chomping at the bit now.
KEYES They wanna see me indicted for this so.
RUSSO In their jurisdiction.
KEYES Whatever. I mean the whole deal originally was that I would be charged federally with it and now you’re ready to just hand it over to them and let them charge me.
RUSSO No I…
KEYES So I don’t care, you know, if they wanna charge me I’m not - it’s pretty clear…
KEYES …at this point I’m not gonna get what I want, at least not - I’m not even get a straight answer on what I want. You know, and I - app - apparently I misunderstood the way the whole process works from the beginning, you know? So all the information that I’ve given you now is probably gonna get out (chuckles) anyways so whatever. I mean…
RUSSO I think first there - there’s a way to kind of avoid that right now and that’s what we’re working with you on, that’s why we’re negotiating with ya. But in terms of letting them, you know, have the case, that’s not really our intention. But what it is - is the reality of the situation is, you know, they understand that, you know, wh - when they initially were involved that you were cooperating then you - you know, you decided to slow it down. And, you know, right now they can charge you and put pressure on the feds to give over the evidence. And that’s the reality of the situation. Yeah, can we sit there and say, “No Vermont we’re not giving you whatever evidence we uncovered with respect to, you know, the CURRIER’s?” Yeah, I mean it’s conceivable but for the people who make the decisions and how this would blow back on them, realistically they couldn’t do that. They couldn’t, you know, they would put political pressure on saying hey the FBI is holding back evidence in this double murder and we can’t prosecute this guy because they’re not playing fair.
RUSSO Um, that - that’s - that’s the reality of the situation and it’s the situation we’re trying to avoid in other jurisdictions. I mean we’re trying to do that but, you know, we’re - we’re, you know, it’s like herding cats at this point. And I think, you know, if we go in there with an agreement to other jurisdictions and simply say, all right look, you know, he - he’s cooperating but he needs your assurances that you’re not gonna do these things that, you know, Vermont still has the option of doing. I think we’re a lot better off. And, you know, your - your desire for discretion on some of these things about what comes out in court, you know, we can negotiate with those things. And we can try to figure out and strike a balance where, you know, you would get what you want but we’d get what - what we want. I mean are there any guarantees on what a jury does? No. I - can I tell you what the judge is gonna do? No. But that’s the nature of the work.
RUSSO I mean that’s, you know…
RUSSO That’s just the way, you know, the law works. I can’t, you know, even, you know, I couldn’t - I couldn’t, uh, you know, guarantee any jury. You know, even now matter how strong the evidence - what they do with it.
KEYES Oh I know. That’s…
RUSSO You know, so - but all I can tell ya…
KEYES That’s obviously the biggest issue of all.
RUSSO Mm-hm. But the more compelling - I can tell ya in my experience the more compelling the case is for the jury, the more likely it is, the more - the stronger the evidence, the more likely it is that you get a favorable verdict. So, you know, yeah you can go, you know, before the jury in the CURRIER’s case and - and say, yeah, you killed these two people and, um, you know, that would be the evidence but at sentencing you make a much more compelling case if, you know, you say all right there’s also, you know, eight other people that you killed. And you provided evidence on those and, you know, by virtue of the agreement, you know, we would be circumscribed from telling the jury about that. I mean that’s one way to handle it. You know, and I think the problem is you’re sort of between a rock and a hard place. You - you don’t wanna give the jury the - all the information ‘cause, you know…
KEYES I don’t care if the jury has the information I just didn’t want it all over the media.
RUSSO All over the public.
RUSSO Well I mean that’s - goes back to sort of the - the first…
KEYES But apparently that’s not possible. So can I see that letter?
KEYES There’s - there was something else in there I wanted to go over.
RUSSO I think the, uh, like I said there are law enforcement exceptions to keep things sealed and from the public if we’re still investigating it. You know, we just need to get approval of it. And that’s something we can put in that letter, that we’d seek approval for main justice to keep things…
BELL And - and in this - and I’m pretty sure in this letter all we’re asking for on anything else is who and where.
GOEDEN Yeah, the details…
KEYES Yeah, I - no I - I see that.
BELL So you get to co - you - you control that information by telling us just that.
KEYES Right but the problem is with some of that it’s gonna give you more than enough that if this doesn’t work out in my favor you’re gonna keep playing connect the dots and I’m gonna keep getting bounced around from one jurisdiction to the next.
BELL That - with - it doesn’t happen with this.
KEYES No it says, “Prior to any plea agreement I provide the total number of victims, jurisdictions.” Which in turn is gonna give you - well it doesn’t say names or dates but it’s…
GOEDEN Or even specific locations. It just gives us a jurisdiction.
BELL That’s just so we can get their agreement. That’s all we - that’s - that’s why that’s all we’re asking for before that. It’s purposely set up that way, to protect you.
KEYES Right but the problem is - is I already know that you know where I’ve been for the last (chuckles) few years so it’s not…
RUSSO So you’re not giving up anything.
GOEDEN So - so you’re right. That’s not a lot of new information.
GOEDEN It might just corroborate some of the stuff that we have. And - and - and it gives us the ability to go to them and get them on board. Or walk away if they’re not willing to get on board.
KEYES What I see happening with this is that you’re wanting more information up front. I still have no idea what’s gonna happen with the information I’ve already given you. And admittedly you don’t know what’s gonna happen with the information I’ve already given you.
BELL Except that if - in that letter if you don’t get what you want that’s when the information stops right?
RUSSO Yeah, the - it’s conditioned…
KEYES It stops until you start finding stuff.
RUSSO Well it’s conditioned on at least the Attorney General coming back and saying, “Hey we’re gonna seek what you want.” Right? I mean look, you know, you - you’ve identified, you know, some issues that you’re concerned about but, you know, I don’t think there’s anything we can’t overcome here. You know, it’s - there’s no reason to get sort of frustrated about things. It’s, you know, we can work it all out. You know, you’ve just identified…
KEYES Oh I know we can work it all out I just don’t see what the big time crunch is that you want all this information right now and I still don’t know what’s gonna happen with the stuff I gave you on day one.
RUSSO Mm-hm. Well I think the - the problem is we need that information to kinda keep, you know, Vermont on board rather than have Vermont go public. And once Vermont goes public…
KEYES Vermont already went public essentially.
RUSSO Yeah, that’s - it didn’t really get picked up. They had one reporter who had inside information. She didn’t share her sources as far as I know and clearly the other stations didn’t feel comfortable linking it to - to you. Um, certainly, you know, they were calling and trying to get confirmation.
BELL We - even up here they - they added that disclosure. That they couldn’t…
GOEDEN That they couldn’t confirm it.
BELL That they wou - they couldn’t confirm it locally so that all they did was round what…
BELL …what they had. And it…
KEYES No I get that but I mean you’ve - you’ve - you’ve already said whether I’m charged with this federally or locally in Vermont I’m gonna be charged with it, and soon right?
RUSSO That’s their plan.
KEYES That’s what they want.
RUSSO That’s what they want. And that’s what we’re trying to kind of avoid at least - ‘cause you said you didn’t wanna get dragged back to Vermont so.
KEYES I don’t see how they can do that anyway when I’m still facing charges here.
RUSSO They - they’ll drag you back eventually. I mean what they do is and what’s happened in other cases is they lodge the - the detainer, you finish up here then you go to Vermont, maybe then they lend you out to the state court there and that goes through the process. Which is what you said you didn’t want. And that’s where we’re headed.
BELL And - and the other thing ISRAEL and - and I know you know this is that you - the way typical law enforcement investigation would work on this - you have to admit that the way this - I know this seems slow to you, that this process is taking a long time. But for us and the people that are - that are in charge of us, what they want - they know that there’s potentially up to 10 or 11 victims. So there’s 7 or 8 that we don’t know where they’re at and those kinda things so what we’re getting the pressure to do is find those other people. And so what you don’t want us to do is to use conventional police methods to do it. And that would…
KEYES You’re already using conventional pol…
BELL We’re not. We haven’t gone to…
GOEDEN Media, that’s a big one.
BELL We haven’t gone to local media places and said, “Israel KEYES was here on April 9 of - April 10 of 2009, he committed this Tupper Lake bank robbery, he killed somebody in - in this area and they’re buried here and we need the public’s help in finding out if they saw him or his vehicle and this is the vehicle and this is the license plate number.” That’s what - that’s what a typical police investigation would do. We know you don’t want that because the first one of those that we put out gets on the today show.
KEYES You don’t want that either.
BELL You’re right - you’re right, we don’t because we - we want this cooperation that we have. And that’s what’s - that’s why we’ve been delaying this but the pressure is getting increasingly - with Vermont we’re getting calls from Vermont also since they ran their story. The Colonel of the State Police there is getting calls from other families in that area who now think Israel KEYES coulda killed their family members because he killed somebody else there. And so that’s what we’re looking - that’s what’s gonna happen in every state if we use conventional police methods. And we - we wanna keep it as quiet as you do because we want the information from you, ‘cause we know it would be the most accurate. I mean that - that’s just the reality of it. I - I - I mean I know you know that.
KEYES Oh I - I know. I - but you know as well as I do that you can put my name and face out there and dates out there all you want but we’re talking about stuff that’s happened at least two years ago now.
BELL I know - I know. I realize that. But that - that’s the only other way we can do it right?
KEYES I don’t know. I - probably but I’m just saying that I’m getting a little bit ticked off at what’s happening with the information that I’ve already given you, you know, and I see no reason at this point to keep giving you more information ‘cause I don’t know what’s gonna happen with that. Once it’s - once you have it - once they have it, these different jurisdictions it’s their information. Yeah, I understand that but then I lose, you know, I lose it and you guy - and then, you know, Vermont, New York whoever, they - they do whatever they want with it. And, uh, like I say, you know, it - the whole - the whole process is - I’m getting - I’m getting a little bored with it so.
RUSSO I mean you’re a, you know, annoyed with that. With the way that was handled. Quite frankly I’m annoyed with you. Because you had in your power a way to stop it right here. And I came up with this plan and you coulda done it. And if you did it we wouldn’t have had the problem in Vermont last week because they - we would’ve had the authority to say…
KEYES They had already leaked my name to the press…
RUSSO Yeah, but I mean they had nothing else.
KEYES …at that time that - that letter was out.
RUSSO They had nothing else. And, you know, they leaked it but they had absolutely zero until they had the corroboration of the press conference which by virtue of this letter we would’ve had more sway into telling ‘em, “No you can’t do that because he’s cooperating and here’s what he’s already done and he’s lived up to his end of the bargain.” So that’s the reality of the situation. You blame us for the situation, I’m blaming you.
KEYES I do blame you. I told you from the get go, before I told you where the freaking bodies were left I told you that I didn’t want the locals involved and the first thing you do is make a big scene and do a big freaking archeological dig right along side a main road.
RUSSO I mean come on. You’ve agreed in the past - if we’re being honest here, that we’ve handled that situation as quietly as possible. You know, to the whatever extent we could, we shut peoples mouths and the only problem was probably one cop that didn’t get the message early on. And that was it. Because…
KEYES No I think you need to back up to your recordings (chuckles). ‘Cause I - I - I remember the conversation and I said I didn’t want the locals involved. And - and I know now from…
KEYES I mean I talked to the guy, I talked to the lead investigator. Not only did you involve…
KEYES …him in that but you took him to New York to dig up the guns. You’ve had him in - you had him involved from the very get go.
RUSSO Well the only reason that guy was involved in the conversation is we were sorta planning on going with this at the time if you remember. Okay, and that was sort of by your consent.
KEYES You went and got the guns before that letter was written.
RUSSO Yeah - yeah, we were trying to - I mean that - that lead investigator - like I said, politically and maybe even, you know, the FBI can explain it to ya - ya can’t just simply walk in there and say…
KEYES Well you told me you could.
RUSSO I - I - I don’t think we did. I mean…
KEYES Back up to recordings.
RUSSO Yeah, you know, I’ll - I’ll go look at it and I’ll listen to it and I’d be happy to kinda share it. But I think what we said was, “The FBI would lead and handle the case.” And that’s what happened.
KEYES No you said you would control it.
RUSSO Yeah, and to the - whatever extent we could, we did. In fact…
KEYES Right and I’m saying I’m not happy with the extent that you’ve controlled it.
KEYES You haven’t controlled it at all.
BELL We - we - we and we realize that, we can see that. We’re not happy either. I mean but we’re - we’re…
KEYES Look I know it was more than one thing that caused the whole thing to get outta control. I know that if the house had just b - still been there and it all just been neat and wrapped up in a couple days without doing a fricking landfill dig, yeah, it woulda made it easier but that’s not - the fact is there different things that happened - the way they happened and now I don’t know what’s gonna happen with all this information I’m giving you. And you know I’m not just talking about the CURRIER’s.
RUSSO Mm-hm. Well that’s why were here and negotiating with you. You know, look you have stuff you want, we have stuff we want. Yeah, can we promise you absolutes? No.
KEYES I know that’s…
RUSSO That’s just like you can’t promise us absolutes that we’re gonna find these people. So who knows whether or not we’ll ever be able to kind of, you know, give closure to their families. I mean it’s up in the air for us too. You know, we’re just both doing our best to try to come to some sort of resolution. Yeah, it’s not ideal and we have different interests but I think there’s a way to meet those in the middle that will avoid a lot of the things that you don’t want. And at least try to get us started on the things that we want. No guarantees from our end either.
GOEDEN We have the ability to control it better now. I told you the other day back in April when you told us about the CURRIER’s we had no idea what we were dealing with. We didn’t know there were 7 or 8 more bodies. We didn’t know - we didn’t know a lot. And we have the ability now I th - to control it better.
BELL Had we known that back then and were able to communicate that to people in Vermont I don’t think the leak would have happened. But I think that - that - that person…
GOEDEN We’d be in a very different place.
BELL …would’ve realized the - the gravity of the situation. I don’t think that they did. I think they thought the end of it was their case. That was the only one that mattered to them and clearly it wasn’t and I’m sure that person…
KEYES Well that, you know, that’s fine. What’s done is done. I’m just saying from right now - from my perspective it - there’s - this letter doesn’t offer me anything. I know that, you know, you have pressure on you…
KEYES …to find these other people but frankly they’ll keep. And I - and my - and - and I still don’t know, like I say, what’s gonna happen with this information I gave you on day one.
RUSSO Well let’s, you know, let’s talk about it.
KEYES I would love to but unfortunately other parties chose not to be here so.
RUSSO I mean look, you know, in - in your discussion of other crimes I mean I know we mention this to you all the time that, you know, you can have counsel present for - for these discussions of other crimes. You know, I know we pay lip service to it but I mean you were in Judge BEISTLINE’s (phonetic) courtroom when we did this whole thing. You know…
KEYES I don’t have any problems…
RUSSO …when we basically said you could - if you wanna stop talking and you wanna kind of invite counsel here then you have - you can invite them and they have to come.
KEYES Look I don’t have any problem speaking for myself. The problems I have is with the legal procedure as to what happens with this stuff in the courts. I already know what happens with it on the ground. I’m just saying I don’t know what happens with - with all this information. Like that - that whole thing about - the whole investigation and interviews being made public for the sentencing hearing.
KEYES I didn’t even - I did not know that. I was lead to believe that if I gave you information then we controlled all that information.
RUSSO Mm-hm. You still have an opportunity to control that information. And, you know, agreements can be struck but they have to be struck now in advance because if we get too far down the line, here’s what’s gonna happen. Like I said, we identified Vermont as, you know, a problem because that was, you know, happened at a time we didn’t know what we were dealing with. I wrote that on the - on the - that flip pad I showed you a while ago. Vermont we gotta deal with Vermont. I know it’s gonna be a problem. All right now I know it’s to the point where, yeah, it - it’s a reality that’s gonna be a problem if we take control of the situation, you know, I think we can avoid that problem. You can then negotiate how - what the extent of what you tell us. And to some extent, you know, what - what comes out in court. But we, you know, we’ve gotta talk about it and you’ve, you know, we’ve gotta kinda go forward. Because what’s gonna happen here is let’s assume we don’t strike any deal - I mean here’s what I see happening and again I saw this months ago and I’m just gonna tell ya in the future what’s gonna happen is they’re gonna go ahead and say all right well he doesn’t wanna enter into a global settlement on the other crimes. We’re gonna go ahead and - and - and charge him. Okay, once they charge him it doesn’t become - well if they charge you it doesn’t become one reporter saying Israel KEYES did this. It becomes all right the government’s saying you did this. And then that becomes sort of a national frenzy of Israel KEYES killing three people traveling around the country killing people. Where else has he been? What kind of shows can we do? And then that in turn puts pressure on the local FBI, all right? They’re gonna come to - to JOLENE and say all right well what did you do? Uh, you know, what have you done to kinda make sure you’ve investigated all those crimes. Oh, you - you didn’t put media out? You know, you’re sitting there talking to Israel KEYES, you’re trusting him? And you didn’t do the necessary things that we see fit?
RUSSO That’s exactly what’s gonna happen and they’re gonna say, you go do it and it’s not gonna be up to - to Jeff BELL or Jolene GOEDEN or Frank RUSSO or Kevin FELDIS.
KEYES Like I say, if they think that’s gonna help then they’re idiots because like I say, we’re talking - I’ve given you…
KEYES …all the information that any - first of all, none of - no media exposure even if I hadn’t given you all the stuff on the more recent ones would have helped. I don’t think it would’ve helped, I don’t know.
GOEDEN It - it maybe wouldn’t help but it’d get your name out there and - and connected with things which is what you don’t want.
KEYES Right. That’s why I gave you the information. But I mean now you’re talking about wanted to put my name in the media which is the one thing I didn’t want from the get go.
GOEDEN We don’t - we don’t (chuckles) wanna do that.
KEYES But you’re - it’s gonna happen is what you’re saying.
RUSSO I’m concerned it’s gonna happen. That’s my concern as I look forward.
BELL If - if we can’t - if we can’t get some…
RUSSO If we don’t have some agreement.
BELL If we can’t get another avenue for doing it, I don’t see that the FBI - I don’t see that we have any other choice on how to investigate it. I mean…
KEYES Uh, yeah, you could just hold off until I see what happens with the information I’ve already given you and then we still have an open line of communication. If you do that I have no - what - what incentive do I have if you - if you - after all the information I’ve given you - you run to the media and put all this crap out there for my family and everybody else to see and then at some point down the road oh we still don’t have enough to find out for sure that he did…
KEYES …this, that, and the other thing. Well lets go back and talk to him. You really think I’m gonna feel like giving you anymore information?
RUSSO Well from our perspective you have to see it’s sort of the other side of the coin. You know, what guarantees do we have that you’re gonna give us the information?
KEYES You don’t have any guarantees.
RUSSO Exactly. Just like you don’t. So we’re trying to reach and agreement here where we both have some assurances that we’re bound by in an agreement. So if we’re bound by it…
KEYES You don’t have any guarantees but it’s pretty likely you’re gonna get the information.
RUSSO Why do you say that? I mean…
KEYES Uh, ‘cause it looks like I’m stuck here for a while.
RUSSO Well what incentive would you have to give up the information?
KEYES I don’t know I’m sure things will come up. Right now you guys got me on pencil restriction so.
RUSSO Pencil restriction, what’s that?
KEYES I don’t know, what is that JEFF?
BELL That’s - that’s to get you to stop eat pencils I guess (chuckles).
RUSSO Look I think, you know, what we’re trying to do is - look it - it’s obviously a situation where you have interests and we have competing interests, you know? Like I said things are negotiated like that every day and I think we can negotiate something like that but, you know, we need a little bit more to do it. You know to avoid Vermont doing what they’re gonna do. To avoid, you know, what the, you know, the FBI nationally is gonna come down and say we should have been doing in this case. Um, you know, that’s…
RUSSO …that’s our interest in it.
KEYES But I don’t see what you - you keep talking about what Vermont’s gonna do but if - you’ve already said that you’re - I’m gonna be charged with this federally if they…
RUSSO Well I don’t know federally or state. I - they haven’t told me.
KEYES But one or the other soon right?
RUSSO That’s with well I mean look, I’ve been holding them off and I can ask them to - to hold off a little bit longer. I mean that’s their plan. They said that in the press conference.
KEYES I’m just saying originally this was - this was all - all this information on the CURRIER case…
KEYES …was supposed to become part of the other…
KEYES …information that I gave you prior to that.
KEYES And now it’s all of a sudden become a separate thing and now you want more information to add to this.
RUSSO We’re just trying to control, you know, what was - what happened at the very outset when we didn’t know the whole scope of things. Let’s just deal with that problem. All right maybe we can’t, you know, solve every single problem here but we’re happy to kind of try to solve Vermont. And I think it would be minimal impact to you if we convinced them that look, you know, he just pleads guilty here and then it gets wrapped up all globally in Alaska. That would be - probably have the least impact on you, agree?
KEYES Yeah, you know, th - this - this whole thing is already a huge (chuckles).
RUSSO You know, we’re just trying to solve the - the…
KEYES They never even found the bodies.
KEYES At least if they had found the bodies then - it’s just, you know, every - there’s no way around it now. You charge me…
KEYES …with the CURRIER’s, everybody knows now as soon as you charge me with that - that I gave you all the information you have ‘cause you didn’t find any on your own. Even after they knew they were at the landfill they’re like, oh we didn’t find ‘em but they definitely murdered…
KEYES …and we definitely have the person who did it. And now, pretty soon we’re gonna tell everybody who did it. And the person who did it is Israel KEYES. So how did they know that? Well he must have told ‘em so - whatever. I mean…
RUSSO Well how can we avoid…
KEYES You can’t avoid it now, it’s already happened. I mean the majority of it’s already happened. The only thing left is you to come out and say…
KEYES …yeah, that Israel KEYES is the one who’s gonna be charged for it so.
RUSSO And they didn’t say that.
KEYES They didn’t say it yet. I’m just saying…
KEYES I’m gonna be charged for it, you said soon. Either federally in Vermont or in Vermont and that’s…
RUSSO Well can - is there a way we can kind of at least keep the lid on things in Vermont any longer? I mean and - and maybe, you know, I know you have another situation to work out but give us something that buys us time in.
KEYES I don’t - how do I know how much time (chuckles) I’m - the - first of all I’m not buying an time because they already did a freaking news story on it. And you’ve - you’ve already said they’re chomping at the bit to charge me now so, you know…
RUSSO But if we can get something from them and simply just say hey, you know, hold off or broker some other sort of, you know, deal. I mean look, you know, obviously our preference and I think yours is too - to wrap all this up, you know, globally with all the other crimes. But, you know…
KEYES Well that’s only if I can get what I want out of it.
KEYES And that’s looking…
KEYES …less likely all the time. Especially since I still have no idea - it’s been fricking months since we first started talking and like I say I still have no idea what’s - like in the broad scope of things what is going on, or what is going to happen, or how long each of these things is going to take.
KEYES I have no idea. I haven’t been able to get a straight answer on it from day one so.
RUSSO I can tell you in terms of the CURRIER case because all I did - I laid it out here, you set the deadlines. And we put deadlines in here, you know, at least for your gratification. We can put more deadlines. We can sort of work on, you know, the - the language. We can work on how much and how.
KEYES There’s - there’s no deadline. I mean the only deadlines are - are events that happen. They’re not dates.
RUSSO Well I mean I said there’s a couple weeks from the events and then there’s, you know, seeking expedited review. And so that’s, you know, what I’ve been working on. It’s not like, you know, we’ve been sitting here just, you know, calling back to Washington DC and asking how can I screw Israel KEYES?
RUSSO I’ve been trying to kind of, you know, pulling my hair out trying to figure out a way to kind of resolve this dispute and settle everything where, you know, you have the best chance of getting what you want and we have the best chance of getting what we want. So I’ve been dealing, yeah, like I said, you know, Vermont what happened, you know, if we had it to do over again maybe we woulda done it a little differently. But we didn’t know the full scope of things and, you know - you know, it is what it is. We can’t rewrite that. What we can do is we can change the - the future as to what happens with it. And what change - you know, we can change the future as to these other things. Because, you know, right now I mean you’re concern is that you go to court on the CURRIER’s and then all these details come out that you don’t necessarily want to come out right?
KEYES With everything that I’ve told you.
RUSSO Yeah, okay, with everything. All right, we keep going the way we are and not agreeing on different things then, yeah, I think stuff like that’s gonna happen. So you’re sort of between a rock and a hard place. Hey, you know, if - if you don’t agree globally you - you can’t stop the flow of information in Vermont. They’ll use whatever - they’ll exert whatever influence and they can kind of use your confessions against you. Right now before that case is charged you’re in a position of power where you can negotiate. All right well here’s the deal. I’ll give you this other stuff but here’s what I, you know, want out of it. And your information is, you know, valuable now. I mean it’s valuable to you and it’s valuable to us.
KEYES It’s only valuable to me as long as long as I still have it. I mean I don’t (chuckles) there’s nothing (chuckles)…
GOEDEN But the value is that it’ll be in - in the agreement and we’re bound to the agreement.
RUSSO Yeah, and the value is also, you know, that they would, you know, and they would use it at Capital Crimes to justify whatever the decision they have to make there confidentially. So there’s that. You know, this other stuff in terms of limiting the amount of information, you know, yeah, you know, if we keep going the way we are then there’s no agreements and who knows what people will use. But there’s a way now to kind of - to do that.
KEYES Well you should know because you’re the one I gave the information to at this point.
RUSSO Well what I’m saying is that if we sort of strike a deal on it and it limits what we’re, you know, we all have bosses like I said. They’re gonna tell us hey, you know, you have to present all this information in court to justify whatever decision the jury’s gonna make on him. But if there’s a binding agreement that says otherwise, you know, at least then we have a reason not to. And then we - we’re bound not to do that. And that could avoid the negative consequences that you’re concerned about. I mean I think there’s a way to do it I - I just don’t wanna shut any doors here.
KEYES Well I don’t either but, you know, the problem is - is I think you’re trying to open all the doors at once and I still don’t even know what’s behind door number one so.
GOEDEN What do you mean open all the doors at once? ‘Cause I don’t…
KEYES That’s what - that’s what this letter is asking for. You want, you know, to an extent as much information as you can get and I still have no idea what’s gonna happen with it. You know, if - if - if this doesn’t work out for - from my perspective then you still have your information and then I still have no idea what’s gonna happen to me so.
GOEDEN But I think up front all we get is jurisdiction. If I…
RUSSO Until you…
BELL When we…
BELL ‘Cau - ‘cause we are - we already know the numbers right?
GOEDEN So, yeah, all - all we get up front is jurisdiction.
BELL So what were getting is where.
GOEDEN And not even a specific where. Just…
BELL A jurisdiction.
GOEDEN Eastern district…
RUSSO Not a year, not anything else. Not a name, it’s just to fulfill your needs to kinda simply say hey I don’t want this to be a problem in me getting what I want.
KEYES I just - I - I mean if - if I’m gonna give you any information I would just rather have something that’s tangible that I get for it (chuckles).
RUSSO Well I mean let’s talk about it. I mean, again there are no promises but, you know, let’s…
KEYES Well if it’s not a promise then it’s not very tangible.
RUSSO Well it’s - it’s tangible in that we can, you know, assure you what we’re gonna do. Some of this like you said is out of our hands in terms of judge and jury or…
KEYES No I, yeah - no I get that.
RUSSO But hey, you know, tangible is a letter from a jurisdiction that says I’m not gonna prosecute you. I mean that’s tangible.
KEYES I’m - I’m talking about something that says - like I say, my main concern has always been, um, the amount of information that’s released that I have given you. The details, certain details. Um, you know, to me that’s a major concern and I don’t and - and right now I’m still really fuzzy on, you know, if - if what I want - if - it sound - I don’t know, from what I’ve been hearing it sounds like it has to come out. If - if it goes to the death penalty sentencing phase it sounds like all that stuff is gonna come out and I don’t know, it’s just…
RUSSO Well I mean let’s - that’s why…
KEYES And - and - and in the mean time I’m also concerned about you releasing that information anyway as - as - wheth - whether you’re doing it to piss me, off or whether you’re doing it to get the publics attention or wh - for whatever reason, you know…
GOEDEN So lets control that ISRAEL. None of that has to come out. Or the stuff that you don’t want to come out doesn’t have to if we negotiate and ag - and agree upon what that is.
KEYES Right that’s what I’m say - it - it…
GOEDEN So let’s do that.
RUSSO Yes let’s not, you know, I didn’t write that letter to say hey take it or - or leave it. I mean it’s - I gave it to ya, let you review it, you know, agreements are negotiated all the time.
BELL What would you like to see in there that’s not.
KEYES No I don’t - I don’t know. I - because I don’t even know what’s possible at this point. All I know is, you know, I - with all the information that I’ve given you, um, just really fricking - this meeting would be a lot more (chuckles) a lot easier…
RUSSO Well I mean I - I can come up a plan C, you know, if you want. And my plan C would look something like this. You know, ISRAEL sort of controls the amount that comes out in the sentencing of the CURRIER’s, you know, and we can agree upon what that is. Maybe it, you know, sort of a - a, you know, a brief statement of I killed this person and they are buried here, right? Um, you know, in exchange for obviously we’re gonna do all those things in advance to get your assurances of non prosecution. Then you’re also controlling the extent of information that comes out. So I mean I think, you know, look like I said it’s sort of a catch 22. You want to have the death penalty imposed upon you, the more information the judge or jury has the more likely that would be. But, you know, I guess my plan C is well, you know, then at least we can kind of do quantity over hey, you know, details of what happened. I think that, you know, would be…
KEYES Yeah, but the time to do that is at sentencing not now.
BELL Mm-hm. No well I mean we have to get started on it to at least…
BELL …corroborate it and get those assurances from those jurisdictions, right?
GOEDEN Otherwise if it…
KEYES Well I don’t know.
GOEDEN …comes out at sentencing you get charged.
KEYES That - see this is the stuff I don’t know. I don’t - I mean how - how the hell do I know we have to do it now? For all I know you can charge me and then at the time of the sentencing, you know, we can say look there’s this additional information. I just don’t see where I have any incentive to give you anymore information right now because all this stuff is gonna happen to me anyway. I mean whether I’m charged federally or in Vermont - I don’t even understand how they can charge me in Vermont because FELDIS told me this was a federal crime so that’s - that was the whole idea of me giving you like…
KEYES …the guns and the silencers and all that crap because…
KEYES …I thought it was all gonna be federal and now you’re telling - saying they wanna charge me locally and I don’t even - whatever. You know, you’re the lawyer so.
RUSSO I think that nothing, you know, there’s nothing that can’t be overcome here, all right? And - and that’s what I’m just trying to work on. You know, I just - I’m trying to figure out a way where everybody get’s closest to their goal. And I think we can do that.
KEYES Oh you’re gonna get your goals (chuckles).
RUSSO Well, you know, I - I don’t know that.
RUSSO What - what do we just go back and I gotta show the guys, hey well don’t worry ISRAEL said we’re gonna…
RUSSO We’re gonna get what we want so don’t worry guys. I mean you know what they’re gonna say to that (chuckles). You know this way at least if there’s an agreement we can show them - I can go, you know, it’s not just ISRAEL saying. It’s an agreement that, you know, we have that, you know he’s gonna get us close to our goals, we’re gonna get him as close as we can to his goals and, uh, you know, hey we’re both walking away leaving something at the table. Jurisdictions are walking away, leaving something at the table. I mean we’d have to get those assurances and, you know, that’s something that’s gonna take time. And that would prevent you from, you know, the - the detriment of getting dragged around. Which is something you’ve told us you want to avoid. And - and I’m just trying to keep it together.
RUSSO And I think this is the best way.
KEYES See that’s another concern I have is - is, you know, I give you this information, things don’t work out my way, I still get dragged around.
RUSSO How - how you figure?
KEYES Because - because if plan A doesn’t work then all these other jurisdictions, they’re gonna go to plan E - B and charge me separately for everything that I’ve done.
RUSSO Plan A though before we would get to would get to it would require them to write a letter saying they’re not gonna do that right?
BELL Saying that they wouldn’t do that.
KEYES Well I - I’m - it’s not on here now. I mean I…
RUSSO Well we can put it on (chuckles) there. I mean, you know, look that’s - that’s a starting point. It’s a three page letter - not even. Like I said that needs to kinda go into a - a more comprehensive agreement but, you know, don’t get frustrated with the terms. Everything is, you know, you have some other concerns you’ve identified today, you know, we change the letter. You know, we - we work on it. But we don’t just get frustrated and kind of walk away because that’s, you know, that puts people in a corner. We don’t wanna put you in a corner, we don’t wanna be in a corner. I think we both know that the best way to proceed on this is the way we have been proceeding and doing it as quietly as possible. I mean I think, you know…
KEYES I just - well that’s my whole issue right now is…
KEYES …it hasn’t been very quiet. I mean there was already like fricking pages online about me - I don’t know.
RUSSO Pages speculating.
KEYES Yeah, but, you know, spec - I don’t know whatever. Speculation, fact, does it really matter now (chuckles) a days?
RUSSO Well, you know, I - I think it does. I think you even said that last time we met. It’s like, yeah, one reporter, you know, reporting something. It’s not reality yet and, you know, I just am trying to negotiate a resolution that look it’s gonna control Vermont because, you know, we learn from it and it’s gonna help us avoid that problem in other jurisdictions. You know, we can control certainly what’s introduced but like I said if there is a way where you’re cooperating with us and we can represent the court in cooperating there may be a way to keep that cooperation under seal in - in court.
KEYES Yeah - no that’s what I’m concerned about but I’m - like I say there’s - the CURRIER case is not the only one I’m concerned about right now so.
RUSSO Let’s deal with those concerns on the other cases. I mean that’s why the whole, you know, aim of the plan was to kinda get their buyoff before we do anything. I - I, you know, if - if we can’t go to them and simply, you know, have someone say hey, you know, we just need your buyoff on this, you know, we need the assurance. You know, it’s - it’s difficult to kinda control things. I - I agree I, you know, I do think that look you’re gonna follow through on your end but…
KEYES I just - I just think at this point I - I’m kind of feel like I’m in a position where I’ve given you a certain amount of information. None of it has - or I shouldn’t say none of it, about half of what I thought we had an understanding on, you know, from the very beginning hasn’t worked out in my favor. Granted, you know, some things haven’t worked out in your favor but I just think at this point - I just don’t see what incentive I have to tell you anything else. I’ve got f - I mean day to day - I got day to day issues and, you know, we come over here, we sit in this room and I still don’t know what’s going on with - like I say with - with everything that we’ve talked about and…
RUSSO Well in terms of the other case and now obviously that’s on you and - and your lawyers to kind of to do whatever you see fit. In terms of the CURRIER case that’s what I can control and that’s what I can help control at least, um, to the extent that I can assure them that things are in the works. You know, look I can tell them and I have told them, look I think he’s gonna cooperate and continue giving us some of this stuff in exchange for some of the, you know, for some discretion but, you know, they - they don’t know you and, you know…
KEYES I don’t expect any sympathy from (chuckles) anyone.
RUSSO No - no and they’re - they’re not.
RUSSO That’s exactly the point.
KEYES Come on lets be realistic (chuckles).
RUSSO Well I am being realistic.
RUSSO They’re not - they’re not sympathetic at all.
RUSSO That’s why they’re saying well, you know, gotta case on him I guess we can go ahead and charge him.
KEYES Exactly, so.
RUSSO What I’m trying to tell ‘em is look that’s maybe not the best thing to accomplish everybody’s goals. And if I have something that I can take to them I can maybe, you know, just put that off. So that’s all I’m trying to deal with. All right look, you know, I think there’s a way to kind of circumscribe and - and limit the information in court. I think there’s a way to write that into the agreement, I think there’s a way to a global settlement. You know, but if you wanna put a band aid on it as they call it and let’s - let’s try to deal with the Vermont situation, I’m amendable to doing that too. You know…
KEYES I, yeah, I don’t know - I don’t, um, yeah, there’s just a lot of stuff…
RUSSO What about…
KEYES The - why is it - why is it car jacking anyway? I didn’t get that part either.
RUSSO Well you - you took their, uh, their - put them in the car.
KEYES Is that because it was their car and not mine or something?
KEYES So if it had been my car it would have been kidnapping or what?
RUSSO Yeah, it depends on, you know, the method of kidnapping but.
KEYES It’s just weird. Car jacking.
RUSSO Yeah, kinda makes you seem like a gang member.
RUSSO I’m just trying to think about Vermont and maybe how to buy time over there.
KEYES I don’t - like they’ve all ready released enough information. They’re gonna get hounded endlessly until…
RUSSO I know but…
KEYES …they release my name now so.
RUSSO Yeah, but if I can, you know, give them something that kinda gives them comfort and gives the family comfort then, you know, maybe we can delay things there until at least you find out what’s going on in your other situation.
KEYES I don’t - like I say it doesn’t matter as far as Vermont goes everybody already assumes I did it so.
RUSSO Yeah, but no ones really…
KEYES Even my own family pretty much assumes I did it so (chuckles).
GOEDEN But one of your goals was to not get charged out there.
GOEDEN That was one of the things you told us the other day. Is that you didn’t wanna…
KEYES No I don’t.
GOEDEN …have to go back there. So that is something that we can still…
BELL So ideally what would that - what would that say? You said there was some, you know, what would - how would you have that read? What information would you have released about the - I mean you con - you control everything beyond the CURRIER’s ‘cause you’re only - you only tell us whatever you want to be released. What - what would you - what would be acceptable to you to be released that you think would meet your goal in this case? And like FRANK…
BELL …was talking about quantity.
KEYES Well it sounds like right now I don’t even know if this is gonna be charged by Vermont or by the feds and, um…
BELL So what would you want that to say regarding that?
KEYES See that - this is the problem though ‘cause I don’t even know what’s possible (chuckles). I don’t…
KEYES I doesn’t…
GOEDEN It - it does talk about that if this - this offer outlines a proposal, you plead guilty they conduct in Alaska which would prevent you from having to go back and face charges in Vermont. Either state or federal back there.
RUSSO That would be the goal - that’s the goal of this letter is let’s keep it here. You know, at least…
GOEDEN So if that’s (unintelligible).
KEYES I just don’t understand why they even would wanna charge me there in the first place, it makes no sense.
RUSSO Well, you know, it’s - it’s also their family members that they feel like they’re close to and I’m just giving you - you know, their perspective they gave me. They wanna kind of make sure their family members seek justice and, you know, they - they feel like it’s a Vermont crime and the community needs to - to know that type of thing and, you know, that - that’s their sentiment. It may not make sense to you but I understand it from a law enforcement perspective that, you know, hey you committed a crime there you should be held accountable there. That’s typically their take on things. And it would probably be our take on things too if it happened in reverse, all right? But I think that there - there’s a way to just be able to kind of at least put them off for a little while - while you’re thinking about other things and thinking about a global resolution we can - we can work on. But, you know, like I said, um, that’s a way for us to get close to our goals if you wanna sort of smaller way, I can come up with one.
KEYES No - I mean you’re goals at this point are pretty easy.
KEYES I mean there’s - my goal is not to get charged for…
RUSSO For the CURRIER’s.
KEYES Seven - eight different times or whatever.
RUSSO And that’s a goal we can…
KEYES For the same thing.
RUSSO That’s a goal we can help you with.
GOEDEN Well that - that addresses everything…
KEYES Right - no I understand that’s - that is something I still have in my control. I mean a - apparently it’s already out of my control. I’m already gonna get charged twice.
RUSSO We can, you know, at least have that just rolled in here and just - we’re trying to do that.
KEYES Right - no I understand that but I would rather have it all hammered out - this - this just seems…
GOEDEN Well, you know what I…
KEYES …really preemptive right now it’s like there’s gotta be a way to do it to where I get something a little more concrete and then, you know, then I know for sure that - that’s it. It’s not gonna keep going on and on from one…
GOEDEN So what - what’s an example of what you mean by not concrete? Like what would you - I guess I’m not clear on what you want.
BELL Well that’s - that’s within our control.
GOEDEN I - I thought you were…
BELL What - what - what could we put in there in writing that is…
KEYES I don’t know that there’s - I don’t know. I don’t ha…
RUSSO What types of ideas have you, you know, would you like in there? I mean look just plain ideas that we can, you know, work with. And I think I have some thoughts on, you know, a couple different ways we can try to work on this, um, you know, I just need to know what your concrete ideas are because, you know, that’s - that’s what you want out of it. I mean I - I try to write that with your goals in mind based upon a flip chart of what your goals are and, you know, I think I try to satisfy those. And, you know, if to the extent that you have other goals and other ideas then, you know, we work it in.
KEYES Yeah, I’m just not so sure I even have that goal anymore. I mean like I say if I - if they’re gonna - if me looking for the death penalty is gonna make this into a bigger circus than it already is and they’re gonna take all this information that I’ve - all the things that I’ve done and put it in a public sentencing hearing. I…
GOEDEN It doesn’t have to happen that way though.
KEYES Well I don’t know that though. I mean I’ve - ‘cause I’ve been told it does so this is the problem we have (chuckles).
RUSSO Well - well I can tell you is the United States government controls what events is introduced into court. And I represent them. So I have absolute control over what evidence I put in.
KEYES Right. Well that’s good to know.
GOEDEN And if it says in here what evidence gets introduced, that’s what FRANK has to go by.
RUSSO Yeah, I mean no one’s gonna tell me that, you know, here’s what I have to do. Now obviously there’s, you know, bosses everywhere that will try to tell you stuff but if we have an agreement that bonds those people then, you know, it is what it is. Court doesn’t have any right to demand more information from us. Court has to let us try our case. And I decide all the time at trial, I’m not gonna put that person on even though maybe they could help my case but it’s not worth it to me. It’s not worth it to me ‘cause I have some other goal in mind. It’s the legal strategy 101 that happens every day. So, you know, that is in my control that’s what I’m telling you. And so you want something that’s within my control, it’s as simple as that.
KEYES (Chuckles) I’m gonna end up in fricking max lock down year after year and you guys bouncing me around.
RUSSO Doesn’t have to be that way.
KEYES Call it a premonition.
RUSSO Doesn’t have to be that way. And we’re trying to avoid that. Everybody in this room I can tell you is trying to a - avoid it being a circus. We’re just trying to get, you know, what we want, let people know - our bosses that we’re getting what we want. You know, we’ve got some assurances, you negotiate what you want. If we wanted to screw you I wouldn’t be sitting here drafting a letter to you about here’s what we’re gonna do for you and, you know, I wouldn’t even be in here. You know, if we wanted to go ahead and just try to make you villain we could just go and do that.
RUSSO All right?
KEYES (Chuckles) I’m already a villain.
RUSSO Well, you know, look…
RUSSO You’re concerned about the extent to which…
KEYES Well there’s certain things - look from an entertainment’s perspective, from my perspective, yeah, it would be really fun to have this stuff come out but, you know, I’m not trying to single handedly give my mom a heart attack so. But I still think there’s gotta be (chuckles) something more that I can get out of giving more information. I just - ‘cause I don’t - I haven’t seen anything yet.
BELL What do you want?
KEYES I wanna know what’s gonna happen (chuckles).
BELL You wanna know when? What’s gonna happen and when? You wanna know…
RUSSO You wanna know how much information is gonna be released publically? Let’s (unintelligible) that out a little bit more.
KEYES Well first of all we can’t - we can’t talk about it in this meeting.
KEYES And that’s the biggest problem of all.
RUSSO Okay. So that problem is…
RUSSO Go ahead.
KEYES …there’s this problem with Vermont that they already have enough information on me they want, you know, they wanna make it public or whatever. One way or the other whatever. Honestly I don’t really give - I don’t care if this CURRIER thing gets charged in Vermont or gets charged federally. I - because right now I’m - it’s not - either way it’s - it seems like it’s just gonna keep dragging on and I’ve got other more immediate concerns.
RUSSO Well you’re immediate concerns - I mean here - here’s an idea to deal with your immediate concerns. Um, you want time to deal with those immediate concerns and, you know, Vermont is obviously, you know, under some pressure to kind of make a decision in terms of charging. If there’s a way I can at least go back to them as this band aid and say look, um, we’re going to, you know, move forward on part of a plan. Let’s assume we go back to the sort of just the New York thing and we simply say - part of a plan to give it a try, he is going to provide just the jurisdiction where the person is (unintelligible). If you agree to kind of put off charging and to just do the same thing you’re doing. Just put off the press, put off charging, just say investigation’s continuing. If there’s a way to go back to them and do that for like I just said, you know, sort of as a band aid type of thing just to - to buy us some time. You know, I’ll - I’ll be happy to try that.
KEYES I - no I don’t - like I say I don’t care. They’ve already released the information in the media, you know, they’re gonna charge me for it, you’re gonna charge me for it either way I don’t - the whole thing wasn’t even supposed to - whatever.
RUSSO Well there’s a way to, you know, at least put that off and, you know, if there’s a way to put that off maybe there’s a way to strike a bigger deal down the road. You know, if we buy us some time for ourselves. And obviously that would entail though getting the assurance before you gave any information. So I mean look it - it’s a band aid, it allows you to get an assurance but it also buys you time to think about your ultimate goals and what you want in an agreement.
GOEDEN That also gives you a chance to see if this plan would work which I - I sense is part of your concern.
KEYES Yeah, ‘cau - I - it doesn’t - it says that this plan - it says right in this plan that this plan might not work so (chuckles).
RUSSO No - no - not from our perspective.
KEYES (Unintelligible) (chuckles).
RUSSO I said look it, you know…
KEYES Not the kinda thing you wanna see (unintelligible)…
RUSSO Which part are you talking about?
RUSSO Which part are you talking about?
KEYES Well it says you understand that we have no control over what the…
RUSSO The Attorney General?
KEYES Right. So that’s I mean - but that’s - that could follow through with this entire thing or the majority of it.
RUSSO Yeah, but then you get to walk away.
KEYES There’s - there’s nothing in it that anybody has any control over.
RUSSO No I think - I think that we do have control over things and you have control over things because - that I put in there just, you know, the Attorney General thing a (unintelligible) for what you want. ‘Cause if you’re not getting what you want then I understand you don’t have a benefit. If the Attorney General comes back and says, you know, life in prison is what I want you to seek that’s not gonna make you happy. And then, you know, the benefit of your bargain is - is lost in my eyes. And that’s why I put it in there. But look, you know, I think we didn’t wanna write this letter by saying, you know, the Attorney General is not - never gonna guarantee what’s gonna happen. We can’t make the Attorney General guarantee what’s gonna happen, we can only make full information available. So that’s just the sort of acknowledgement that the Attorney General is an independent body and he gets to make a decision, you know, whatever - whatever he sees fit based upon whatever information. So, you know, look as - as much as there is, you know, the main crux of this deal is you getting control over the prosecution of cases. You getting control over if you want - the extent of information. You getting some guarantees over that. And in exchange us moving forward as quickly as possible with you controlling, you know, some of the deadlines. So I don’t know I - I do think you get what you want. I mean look we just can’t, you know, I don’t have the authority to speak for the Attorney General and look…
RUSSO I’d like to put a deadline on him too. You know, and say hey you gotta come back with a decision next week but, you know, he’s not gonna listen to me.
KEYES Well there’s another factor that I just - just occurred to me recently with the sentencing portion is if whoever happens to be sentencing me knows that the death penalty is what I want there’s a chance that, uh, there could be some reverse psychology going into play there and they’re gonna wanna give me the opposite of what I want.
RUSSO Mm-hm. Well I think you even talked about that at one point and that’s - that was part of your thought that you’d go before a jury rather than a judge.
KEYES Yeah, but I’m just saying it could work either way.
RUSSO Yeah, I mean, yeah, it’s possible - it’s possible.
KEYES There’s just a lot of un - (chuckles) unknowns.
RUSSO I mean look, yeah…
KEYES I don’t know.
RUSSO I mean here - here would be, you know…
KEYES Maybe this, yeah…
RUSSO You can’t guarantee a - like I said I can’t guarantee what a judge is gonna do, I cant guarantee what a jury’s gonna do but.
KEYES You just work out a whole under the table resolution.
RUSSO I - I…
BELL And the other - the other way to look at that though is too is if, uh, if you think that’s a possibility with that reverse psychology I mean I guess by if - if - if they think you have something still to offer maybe - maybe that would be an option but if - if not then you know what I mean? If they still think there’s information to - to be had or as if we had an agreement where all the information was gonna come out I - I mean I think that might be less likely you know what I mean?
BELL I mean that’s the only reason…
KEYES This whole thing is…
BELL …I can think they could look at something like that. Just my - just my thoughts.
KEYES Everybody just makes too big of a deal outta this stuff.
RUSSO I mean we’re trying to…
KEYES Bigger problems in the world we could be worrying about right now. (Chuckles).
RUSSO Well this is, you know, one problem a day and this is sort of…
RUSSO …a problem that we all have and we’re trying to come up with, you know, a - a solution that we get both - both of us get closer to our goal. And that’s what I’ve been working on and I’ll come up with another plan, I’m happy to kinda keep working on it. I happy to redraft a letter, I’m happy to kinda call whoever I need to call. But, you know, I think, uh, I don’t wanna close the door on things.
KEYES Well I don’t really see that - that’s an option at this point.
RUSSO No I mean I think we all understand that but, you know, we’re - we’re just concerned that…
KEYES My - at this point I’m thinking it’s pretty obvious to me that whatever’s gonna happen is gonna happen and I haven’t been able to control - like haven’t really been able to control any of the information I’ve given out. Like once I’ve given it out that’s - that’s pretty much been it so.
RUSSO I think you’re wrong about that. I mean think about like the Tupper Lake bank robbery. Has anybody come - come to question you about that Tupper Lake bank robbery?
KEYES No I - I’m not that…
RUSSO Arson in, uh, Texas. Burglary in Texas. No one’s talked to you about that right? Bank robbery in Texas.
KEYES That’s probably kinda like small potatoes but (chuckles).
RUSSO Maybe so but look, you know…
KEYES No I - look, okay…
RUSSO The CURRIER thing was the only thing.
KEYES Yeah, okay, yes all right, yeah, okay great.
KEYES So all this stuff hasn’t come out but I don’t know I - I just - I just have some concerns with the (chuckles) with these other - I don’t know. First of all, like I say there’s - I can’t see that there’s anything for me to gain at this point. It seems like whatever’s gonna happen is gonna happen regardless so.
RUSSO I - I - again I’ll disagree with you on that but, you know, like I said I think we can control it (unintelligible) yeah, you know, there was one cop in Vermont who spoke when he shouldn’t have and, you know, yeah, we gotta eat that. Sorry about it. It wasn’t, you know, that wasn’t our plan.
KEYES Well like I say, what’s done is done but, you know.
RUSSO Yeah, so - but I mean with the exception of that I think you remarked before that you’ve been impressed about the level of discretion that we have displayed in here.
KEYES Yeah - no that’s - well mostly I was referring to the Alaska stuff but, yeah, that’s great - that’s fine.
RUSSO I mean on the Alaska stuff we have, you know, obviously more control over but, um, you know, the - the other jurisdictions we’re just trying to control now. I - I don’t wanna get in a position where I lose complete control or we lose complete control in this room about what happens in Vermont. And that’s just sort of what I was thinking about in terms of, you know, that letter. Is just trying to, you know, kinda keep things under wraps there and have them sort of join back together with us to go back to almost that letter. I mean that’s why I thought the letter was, you know, was - was gonna accomplish that in getting us where we need to go. And so I’m just trying to figure out a way to kinda get back there because I think that’s where we wanna be. Where it just says - where is it? Uh…
KEYES Well I mean even if hypothetically - even if we had come to an agreement with that letter that reporter still would have released their information (chuckles) so.
RUSSO Yeah, but look here - look what it says here. Will not identify Mister KEYES as the perpetrator of the murders in crimes he’s committed in Vermont or charge him separately in our jurisdiction without your authorization.
RUSSO That’s the part (chuckles) that, you know, I’m trying to get that back. And in order to get that back I’ve gotta but it with something. You know, politically I’ve gotta be able to give them something to say all right here’s where - why were not doing it and we’re gonna, you know, if someone questions us down the road we have some, uh, reason to say here’s why we didn’t do it. And so that’s just - there - there’s a whole like law enforcement side, you know, and then there’s a whole political side to this too that, you know, we’re - we’re trying to kinda tamp down as well.
KEYES Yeah, I don’t know. Starting to think I’m more efficient than the government.
RUSSO Well I think you’re - you certainly, uh, you’re good at planning stuff.
BELL In what way.
RUSSO You’re good at planning stuff and that’s what I’m trying to do here is…
RUSSO …is simply come up with a plan. And I’m seeking your input on the plan.
BELL You’re - you’re a planner and organizer we could…
BELL …use those skills now to…
BELL …work towards a different goal here.
RUSSO Yeah, I - I’m (chuckles)…
KEYES You know there’s only certain things I like to plan.
RUSSO I’m trying to plan and I’m trying to, you know, give Vermont some little glimmer of hope, in the hopes of accomplishing a bigger goal. You know, if we can’t accomplish the major one or we hafta kinda redraft that letter and get some more concrete terms and you wanna see what happens, fine.
KEYES Yeah, I don’t I - see I don’t even know. Like I say I don’t even know what’s possible.
RUSSO Yeah, well I mean…
KEYES Apparently my peeps didn’t wanna be here so.
RUSSO Well I mean they can be here if you - if you want. I mean that’s the…
BELL Remember what that says is that, uh, if you want ‘em here that…
BELL …they will - they will be here immediately I think is what it says if...
GOEDEN They have to come.
RUSSO Mister CURTNER is supposed to come according to, you know, the court order. I mean so…
KEYES I thought you were always just reading that so you could boot me out if he didn’t show up (chuckles).
RUSSO To boot you out if what?
BELL No I mean that’s - that’s an - that’s your right, that’s an option that the judges…
BELL …have said is if you - if we’re here and you request him, we give him a call and he according to this - the judges order, he has to come and meet you.
KEYES I don’t even care if he’s here physically it’s just - it’d be nice if one of these times could have a meeting and discuss…
BELL Well I mean once I think he has it highlighted is - is exactly what it says.
RUSSO Yeah, I mean I was looking at just to be sure but it’s anytime Mister KEYES wants counsel…
KEYES Well I know I’m entitled to counsel.
RUSSO Anytime counsel becomes immediately available. That’s what it says.
KEYES I understand that. I have not…
RUSSO Counsel becomes available immediately so, you know, that’s - that’s up to you if, you know, you want to discuss other crimes with counsel present and your other counsel - standby counsel’s Mister CURTNER, you know, we can - we can arrange that with him.
BELL I mean we can call him at your request and see what he says. If you’re requesting that.
KEYES No - well I already requested it. I don’t - like I say this meeting was supposed to get set up two days ago.
RUSSO Well you didn’t request it through us just to be clear right?
KEYES No not through you.
KEYES I’m just saying there’s…
RUSSO If you’re requesting that from us now, we’re gonna stop now and we’re gonna step out…
BELL Make a…
RUSSO …of the room and make a phone call.
BELL And we’ll call him and…
KEYES Oh I, yeah, I mean I don’t know - it sounds like there’s nothing else we can talk about unless (chuckles)…
RUSSO All right well I mean I - I wanna kind of obey the - the court order, you know, to the letter if that’s something you’re interested in.
KEYES I don’t know what else - I don’t know what else you have to offer me. And, um, I - I, yeah, the - so I - I mean I’m not - I’m not happy with what the letter is - it lays out the possibilities, uh, but I don’t know if those are the only possibilities, you know, I don’t know. (Unintelligible).
RUSSO Let’s take a break.
KEYES This whole - this whole thing is…
KEYES This whole thing is - like I say it - it - it’s premature.
RUSSO Well lemme - lemme, uh, let’s take a break for a second and step out and I wanna kinda make sure that we’re respecting your rights to…
KEYES Oh I’m fine to talk…
RUSSO …not talk about it.
KEYES I’m fine to talk for my - speak for myself. I’m just saying there’s - there’s other things that need to be discussed in these meetings that we can’t talk about unless at least as it stands now - unless my attorney is here so.
BELL But this says right here if you request us to - to, uh, get a hold of him we’ll do that.
KEYES Right. No I under - I understand that.
RUSSO So I guess I should ask just for the record, do you want us to do that?
BELL Do you want us to call Mister CURTNER right now and see if he can come over right now?
RUSSO All right well we’ll do that.
BELL Do you have to take a leak or anything ISRAEL?
KEYES Yeah, if I could.
BELL Just hang on a second we’ll - let us…
RUSSO So where did we leave off?
KEYES What’s going on with the KOENIG case?
RUSSO All right, here’s what we have. Capital Crimes has the memo, all right? It went in last week. So, um, there was some - I think the US Attorney was a little bit, um, hesitant because there were some concerns that you didn’t wanna sign the, uh, agreement.
KEYES What agreement?
RUSSO The, um - the, uh, agreement she - she wrote to, uh…
KEYES The one to getting the first…
RUSSO Yeah - yeah.
KEYES Right but when I - we - we spoke…
KEYES In the last meeting we had when we were all there and it was on recording…
KEYES …and I said I didn’t want - that wasn’t supposed to be on the table in the first place.
KEYES And I asked FELDIS in that - at the end of…
KEYES …that meeting if there was anything else he need and he said no.
RUSSO Yeah, and then what would happen there is we went back to the US Attorney and her impression was she said, look the original one was in writing so I’d like to - it to be in writing as well.
KEYES So what…
RUSSO So she, um, wrote another letter and obviously, uh, you know, you’ve seen this and so it basically said hey I, you know, just like the comfort of it. And then there was a court order as well that basically, you know, prohibited us from doing anything with Capital Crimes until Judge ROBERTS reconsidered that. Um, and so we got that rescinded but then after that, um, you know, we wrote a bunch of other letters seeing whether or not that was your still - still your intent. Because the US Attorney was very concerned that, you know, you might wanna change your mind and she didn’t wanna welsh on a deal that she had promised you.
KEYES So it sounds like the short story is you put in your memo and you did not recommend the death penalty.
RUSSO I - I can’t tell you what the US Attorney recommended. I’m not - I’m prohibited from doing that. I mean I can just give ya - I mean I - you probably have seen these letters that she wrote.
KEYES I saw a couple of ‘em.
RUSSO Okay, so she - she wrote a couple letters and then I wrote a letter to confirm and the last letter, uh, basically said, you know, in the first paragraph - I don’t know if, um, Mister CURTNER wants to show this to ya or if you’ve already seen it.
CURTNER I already - I - he’s already seen all the letters.
RUSSO Okay, so the last letter was, you know, it’s (unintelligible) to not say that Mister KEYES has changed his mind. Mister KEYES still wants US Attorney LOEFFLER to make her recommendation unbound from any promises contained in the March 30 letter. I have conveyed this information to US Attorney LOEFFLER. So that’s where it stood. So that was the last piece of the puzzle there and then she decided, okay, I’m gonna send my recommendation after that. She sent, uh, her recommendation in, so they have it. This week they wrote back saying, um, giving opportunities for a conference and I think KAREN mentioned this to you RICH.
CURTNER She told me you were gonna give me…
CURTNER …some potential dates.
RUSSO We have four dates, um, for conference. And that’s an opportunity for your lawyers to meet with Capital Crimes and present information about mitigation about, you know, not seeking the - the - the death penalty. And those are August 6, August 13, September 4, and September 17. Those are the four possible dates that we have. Um, and - and the procedure as I understand it is they invite your attorneys back there and, uh, you know, they get to argue that the death penalty shouldn’t be imposed if that’s what you want. You know, I don’t - I’m not privy to your discussions so I don’t know what the discussions are.
KEYES Hypothetically what happens if I don’t have any attorneys?
KEYES Do I get to be at the meeting? (Chuckles).
RUSSO Well I mean I - I think obviously whatever, you know, look that’s between you and your attorneys but, um, your position I think is made known through your attorneys. That’s my understanding of the process at this point. So your position has to be made known to the Capital Crimes Review Committee through your attorneys and I don’t know whether, you know, what your discussions were but I - and I don’t know RICH if you plan to try to present mitigation it doesn’t - sounds like you still don’t want mitigation in that case. In other words you seem like you still are on course for the death penalty.
CURTNER Well I will just tell you we’re still - the - these are complex issues, we’re still…
CURTNER …exploring all this, um, you know, I - I don’t know if, um, you know, we talk about this with ISRAEL all the time.
CURTNER I don’t understand - I don’t know if he completely understands all the procedures involved and the gravity of this type of decision. So, you know, we’re - this - we’re in ongoing discussions, uh, private discussions with ISRAEL about all this.
KEYES Well but the - like I s - like I - we’re - I was saying before, there’s a lot of aspects of the KOENIG case that, um, if it were to go to sentencing - a death penalty hearing that I wouldn’t want to be public.
KEYES Same was with the CURRIER’s. Like - like…
KEYES …we were saying earlier.
RUSSO And what it…
KEYES But - but I have no, you know, I - it doesn’t matter what I sign or what deals we work out. It sounds like there’s no way you can give me any assurance as to whether or not those issues are gonna come up at a hearing.
RUSSO That can be something as I told him before when we got here we can discuss in the context of a global settlement. He’s concerned about the details coming up in open court, all right? Now to the extent that, you know, we wanna limit that maybe we can do that in a global agreement in exchange for, you know, information about these other homicides. And that’s what I was suggesting to him I - I’m sure you’ve seen the letter I’ve sent to him saying, you know, we can maybe go with this process and get some assurances from him that he wouldn’t be prosecuted by state authorities. And he just brought up this morning well, you know, I’m concerned that the details are gonna get out no matter what.
CURTNER Well they’ve already been out, I mean did you see the video from, um, from Vermont? I mean the whole six minute video about everything.
RUSSO Of - of what?
CURTNER Of CURRIER’s and…
RUSSO I mean I - I didn’t think that they really…
CURTNER …KOENIG and…
RUSSO They came out, you know, it was one news station reporting it.
CURTNER (Chuckles) yeah, and everybody that I know of has seen it.
RUSSO Mm-hm, well I mean…
BELL But it’s - and it’s basic information - it’s not the details that ISRAEL’s concerned about I don’t think. None of the information that he’s concerned about getting out has gotten out. And - he’s talking about the details of the crimes not the crime.
CURTNER Well his family saw it before I did and that’s the whole purpose…
KEYES Well that’s a concern too but I mean that, you know, as far as the Vermont - that’s another concern I have somewhat is if - hypothetically if I give you details on…
KEYES …on other crimes in other states, you know, what’s - what’s ultimately going to happen? At what point does that information become public knowledge as well? Or does it? Does it have to? What’s the procedure for that? Is there some way we can work it out to where if I give you this information it stays sealed or at least…
KEYES …limited release or some - I don’t know. I - I don’t even know what the options are.
KEYES It just seems like in Vermont as soon as they had the information they, you know, every - of course everybody wants to know and it’s gonna be the same everywhere else…
KEYES …too so.
RUSSO I think we can work with these other jurisdictions by getting those assurances. You know, as I’ve said sort of before, you know, Vermont was something we weren’t really sure about the scope of things and now that we are…
RUSSO …I think we can proceed better to kinda get assurances at least in the local jurisdictions that, you know, A they’re not gonna prosecute you and B any details you release, you know, at least are not published.
KEYES Right, okay.
RUSSO Now in terms of what comes out in court, that was your other concern right?
KEYES Right, well not just what comes out in court but I’m also concerned about the KOENIG case and that, um, you know, it’s a high profile case up here and what’s gonna happen is as soon as it gets to the point where I plea…
KEYES …to that then all the media is gonna want - it’s gonna be the same thing. They’re all gonna be clamoring for details…
KEYES …like what happened and - and - and all of that. So how - how are - it - what efforts are gonna be made to control that if any and what, I mean…
RUSSO I’m suggesting to you that we can come up with a global agreement which effectively limits what we put out in public in exchange for information about the other homicides. So if we don’t put that out in a court of, you know, law and public…
RUSSO …the media wouldn’t learn of it. So that’s my suggestion as to sort of a global thing to wrap KOENIG into CURRIER’s and everything else. I mean obviously, you know, ISRAEL’s expressed that he doesn’t wanna be dragged back to Vermont which, you know, we’re trying to work with him on and we’re trying to work with Vermont on and it’s - it’s become a little bit difficult because things have slowed down a little bit, um, you know, we’d like to wrap that in and keep him here and keep him in one place. But we’re gonna need some sort of assurances for them that he’s gonna continue cooperating. And that’s what Vermont has wanted so in order…
KEYES I don’t…
RUSSO …to kind of…
KEYES I don’t care about…
KEYES …what comes out about the CURRIER - the - I guess my point is I can try and limit the information that comes out on all this other stuff but if - if what comes - if the details of the KOENIG case come out it doesn’t matter how many other details we suppress on…
KEYES …the other crimes.
RUSSO And that’s what I’m suggesting to you is sort of a global settlement where there’s an agreement to only go into certain details of the KOENIG case and the CURRIER case even though you’ve told them about it. I mean there - there’s been no limitation on those. We now put limitations on those. And we put them…
KEYES Right and - but that’s - that’s what I want to make clear before we go any further on anything.
KEYES Is, um, to have something somewhat concrete in writing, you know, saying…
KEYES …that - that information isn’t gonna come out. When the time comes, you know, that I do plead guilty to the KOENIG case or - or whatever - whatever happens whenever the next release of information to the public is I, you know, whatever else we’ve been working on becomes null and void if all of a sudden there’s this flood of information about what happened in the KOENIG case.
KEYES And I’ve plead guilty to it and then it doesn’t matter.
RUSSO And in return, I mean, for not introducing that information we’d want information about the other murders.
KEYES I understand that. I don’t - like I say, I don’t care ab - like all the other - anything else it doesn’t matter that much.
CURTNER What I would suggest is I’ve talked to ISRAEL about a global settlement.
CURTNER Let me work with him. Let me see if…
CURTNER …we can - ‘cause he’s I think definitely gonna need counsel to understand…
CURTNER …and to know what the global settlement is. I’d like to work with him and see if we can come up with something everybody can agree to on a global settlement. But…
RUSSO Yeah - no and that’s what I’m working towards too. I mean that’s…
CURTNER But I need some time to meet with him.
RUSSO No - no I agree. I mean I just need to know what the demands are and that was the first time that that’s really, you know - you know, obviously it’s not in the letter the level of detail and, you know, I’m happy to work something out and try to get approval for what I’m suggesting. Obviously, you know, what he wants - it seems to be I want the death penalty imposed. Now that’s a catch 22 situation - you understand because the more information the jury or judge has, the more likely it may be that they may impose that all right? Um, if we take…
RUSSO …that away it may be less likely. But that’s something hey I - again I’ve told ya I don’t really care what sentence you get, you know, get’s imposed upon you. You’re the one who cares about it but I - I’ll be up front with ya, yeah, if - if they don’t have that level of detail I think you probably would wanna have, you know, additional murders in there to justify the decision you want them to reach. It’s sort of a quantity versus quality.
KEYES Right I - I understand that. I’m just saying, um, yeah, so they have all the numbers that’s…
KEYES …fine, uh, but that’s what - that’s the only thing they need those numbers for is the sentencing.
RUSSO Yeah - no it would only come out at - at the sentencing but we’d have to get something in return. I mean right now, yeah, you know, we know about how many people you killed I mean that’s pretty clear. I mean that’s not a problem. What we want is the information about those murders. And it could be, you know, look briefly initially to protect your interests to simply say hey I killed this person in this jurisdiction and kidnapped ‘em from here. And, you know, that would sort of satisfy our goals and it would also satisfy your goals I think too. But again I think we both hafta figure out what we wanna get outta this. I mean it’s possible to limit that information that’s presented I think in a sentencing hearing a - again I’d have to vet this up the chain but, you know, we could limit CURRIER and we can limit KOENIG in exchange for the information about the other stuff.
CURTNER But see this process with the death penalty on the table is a whole new thing for all of us.
CURTNER But we have handled many cooperation agreements where there’s a sealed addendum to a plea agreement where the proceedings are closed, where information is not made public in order to protect, um, in order to protect, you know, any - somebody who’s cooperating. Or in this case protecting the family of somebody who’s cooperating and…
RUSSO That’s a good point.
CURTNER …and so that’s something that I’d like to discuss with ISRAEL and with…
RUSSO Yeah, I mean…
CURTNER …and with the government so.
RUSSO That’s something that, you know, is sort of the plan A of - of things we can do is, you know, hope to put everything under seal and justify it by one, safety to your family and two, the fact that these guys are still gonna be confirming the information you’re providing and they don’t want anybody to interfere with that process. So to some of that, you know, a - again as Mister CURTNER said it’s, you know, it - it’s different in that it’s the death penalty but it’s s - some ways it’s the same as what we always do in - in - in other types of cases involving cooperation. That stuff goes, you know, under seeable.
CURTNER And that’s what I’d like to talk to you about ISRAEL.
KEYES Yeah, I just - I just, um, that’s why I keep saying all this is kinda tied together for me because, uh, if certain details of the - of the KOENIG case come out then, you know, anything else is…
RUSSO Yeah, it doesn’t matter to you.
RUSSO That’s sort of like you’re…
KEYES That’s - that’s kind of worse case scenario then everything else I did before that is automatically gonna be assumed just…
KEYES …as bad so.
RUSSO No - no. It’s a fair point, um, yeah, and the problem I’m dealing with and I’m telling, you know, ISRAEL this is the problem I’m dealing with has been, you know, Vermont and, you know, their sort of - they feel like they’re unbound by any loyalty to us and what has been done for that case because there’s no, you know, assurance that things in the future are gonna be done. What I’m trying to do is kind of put their charging decisions off and try to give us some breathing room to figure out how to wrap all this stuff up rather than do it, you know, in - in two different jurisdictions or perhaps three.
KEYES I still don’t know how I can even make any kinda decision on this if - if I don’t even know first of all, you know, you say you can’t tell me what your recommendation was, um, I made it clear what I wanted it to be and so I - you’re expecting me to make decision on everything else…
RUSSO Well you say you made it clear, I mean, you didn’t sign the (chuckles) the agreement. So that wasn’t exactly clear.
KEYES I made it verbally clear.
KEYES I, um…
RUSSO Was there a reason you didn’t wanna sign this?
KEYES I didn’t get it. I just found out the other day that the recommendation was already made. So I assume it doesn’t matter if I sign it now (chuckles).
CURTNER Yeah, I just found out from KAREN at our m - a (unintelligible) meeting we had on Tuesday.
CURTNER We were at a court meeting and…
CURTNER …I talked to her afterwards and that’s when she told me she had already sent in her recommendation.
RUSSO Yeah, I mean, you know, she can always sort of change her recommendation…
KEYES No I’ll sign it now.
RUSSO …there’s procedures for that.
KEYES I - I just woulda - I was told that, you know, it was already done. It was…
CURTNER The recommendation’s already in ISRAEL. And - and to me I don’t think this is valid anyway. You know our feeling about it ‘cause you’ve complied with your agreement - part of the agreement. I don’t - and so…
KEYES Look I - the bottom (chuckles) line - we already all know how this - how this ends so, you know, it’s - all I care about is what happens between now and whenever it ends and if, you know, things don’t go the way I want (chuckles) I don’t - I don’t need you guys (chuckles).
CURTNER Well let’s - let’s just talk about okay?
CURTNER I mean let’s see if we can resolve it.
KEYES I don’t - this - this…
RUSSO I mean th - you know, look…
KEYES …whole thing is just turning into…
RUSSO No I mean I think that there is, you know, look the US Attorney can always provide additional information to Capital Crimes. Additional, you know, information you’d like to provide, your attorneys would like to provide. She’s made that clear in her letters, um, you know I think…
KEYES And what’s with this - why - why do they have to go back and meet with - what did you call it? Mitigation or whatever?
RUSSO Miti - yeah, essentially if - I mean that’s gonna be between you and your attorneys but the process typically is - and in the typical case is the attorneys argue that, you know, death penalty shouldn’t be imposed in - in your case.
KEYES Right. Let’s just nix that whole meeting.
RUSSO Well that’s - that’s…
KEYES If they don’t - they don’t show up.
RUSSO …between you and your attorneys.
KEYES No I’m telling you now if they showed up then they’re not authorized to be there so.
RUSSO Well, yeah, you can discuss that with them. I mean we have - we’re required by our - our, um, policies to give them an opportunity and you and opportunity to do that. So you, you know, you talk to them about what you want them to do. That’s - that’s between you guys, all right? So, um, but I mean to the extent that this letter - I mean this, you know, uh, I think the US Attorney would appreciate it, gratification if you did sign this letter.
CURTNER And I just gotta put on record this is against my advice ISRAEL, um…
KEYES No - don’t worry about it. Never gonna go that far - I mean obviously.
BELL Have you read that letter ISRAEL?
RUSSO Yeah, why don’t read it just to make sure.
BELL Just to make sure - just to make sure you understand it.
KEYES Yeah, it’s words on paper I guess.
BELL Is it the same one that…
RUSSO Same one you’ve seen before.
BELL Have you seen that before?
RUSSO Okay, so the date of, uh, this just to sorta put the date on is 7/20…
RUSSO Six? All right. So I - I mean I’m - I’ll forward this to the US Attorney as - as well to the extent that (unintelligible). But I think these dates are pretty quick and they’re, you know…
KEYES What’s the first one? August 5?
RUSSO August 6.
RUSSO So that’s - I mean whatever your attorneys and you tell us I’ll - I’ll tell them, I’ll write them back, you know, today and say all right here’s the date that you can conference this.
KEYES And what happens next? Like if they don’t - no if they don’t…
RUSSO Then the - they go - then it goes to the Attorney General.
KEYES If they don’t show up.
RUSSO Then it goes to the Attorney General for his decision.
KEYES All right.
RUSSO So are there - there any dates that, uh, RICH that…
KEYES Well they don’t - they don’t need to be there.
RUSSO Okay, well…
CURTNER Well lemme talk to other counsel.
KEYES If I don’t get to be there, they don’t get to be there. ‘Cause they’re my counsel after all.
RUSSO I’ll ask them about - yeah, I mean I’ll ask them about what, uh, what the procedures are and whether - I don’t even know I mean maybe, you know, you have a right to be kinda be teleconferenced in. I just don’t know what, uh, what they do in these types of situations, you know? So that’s - that’s where KOENIG is, um, you know, I - I would like to explore this idea again of this global settlement. Sooner rather than later to be able to kinda control Vermont.
CURTNER Well lemme talk to him this afternoon about it. I’ll come over this afternoon and talk to ya.
KEYES Yeah, we can talk about it but I mean I wanna, uh, make it clear that from here on out the KOENIG case gets incorporated in whatever information is exchanged.
RUSSO The KOENIG case get’s - what - what do you mean by that?
KEYES Any information I give you is incor - incorporated into that. To whatever happens…
KEYES …in the KOENIG case.
BELL So - so you’d like the global settlement…
KEYES So that I - so that I have - yeah. So that I have control over what information is released in that and, you know, we can…
KEYES …do it on like a peace meal basis if - if you, you know, if - if I feel like, uh, if I feel like things don’t work out at any point then, you know, obviously then I’m not gonna be giving any more information. I just don’t, yeah, like starting this process with the CURR - I don’t even know why the CURRIER thing has to happen right now but whatever - whatever they decide to do with it, I don’t care about that. They can - I’m more concerned about what happens, uh, with the KOENIG case.
KEYES That’s the one that, uh…
RUSSO And so we can work on terms of, you know, some global settlement that includes KOENIG and, you know, in order to get Vermont on board I have to kind of…
KEYES Well whatever they wanna do.
RUSSO No I know but I mean you - you don’t wanna be in a situation where we - we solve everything else and then CURRIER’s still out there, correct?
KEYES No I mean I…
RUSSO Yeah, so that’s why I’m trying to keep them, you know, I’ll - I’ll tell them when I talk to them I’m sure I’m gonna have to talk to them this week is that - that, you know, you’re considering in talking to your attorneys about the idea of a global settlement and, you know, to - to give the - to give you some time to do that.
KEYES Right, yeah, but…
RUSSO I’ll see what I can do. I mean…
KEYES I - I don’t understand - like I say I’m sure they wanna do a press release about me or whatever but I don’t understand why they’re even concerned when I’m charged with it. It’s not like I’m going anywhere so.
RUSSO No - I know - I know but it’s, you know, it’s a community thing for them and I understand their position and I’m, you know, been stathing [sic] them off all this time by telling them look, you know, he’s cooperating on other crimes and, you know, that’s - that’s his intent. But again me telling them that ISRAEL’s gonna tell us this information about, you know, that - that doesn’t hold much weight with them so.
KEYES I don’t - I don’t…
BELL And - and you know the other thing maybe you wanna do ‘cause I know you like, you know, time frames and setting some ground rules and stuff. And you haven’t been happy with the way things have been moving like - like now do you wanna set - when do you wanna - when do you wanna talk about this again? I know you’re - Mister CURTNER says he wants to talk to you today. When do you foresee, um, being able to do this - to expedite things so that we’re not three weeks from now talking about the same thing…
KEYES (Chuckles) yeah, um…
BELL You know what I mean ‘cause you - you kinda - you - you’re in control of that and now that everybody’s here you can have - if you have some expectations maybe you could set those out.
BELL As far as just meeting again and discussing things.
CURTNER Well I think - I mean I thing we need to get this - explore this global settlement that we can, you know, if we can…
CURTNER We’ll work on that. If we can get that together then that’s the green light - the go. ‘Cause without that I don’t see us going anywhere with these meetings.
RUSSO Yeah - no I - I think that’s - it would be - would be certainly helpful. I mean obviously there’s other things that we’ve been working on other than the CURRIER’s but, um, you know, in terms of this global settlement, yeah, it’s something we wanna explore, um, I’m trying to think of how to deal with Vermont for the time being, while we work on this. Um…
BELL Well I mean this was put together pretty quick.
RUSSO What I can say at least it sounds like, you know, I can advise Capital Crimes that August 6 is sort of a workable date if his mind doesn’t change about that.
CURTNER Well I mean for me and my schedule, September 17 would be a workable date.
RUSSO But, yeah, I - I - I don’t know exactly.
KEYES Yeah, but it doesn’t even have to happen so why do we even need a date?
RUSSO Yeah, I mean…
KEYES Why does there have to be mitigation? I don’t understand.
RUSSO There - there’s no - I don’t think there’s any (unintelligible).
KEYES But you just said there doesn’t have to be so.
RUSSO Yeah, it’s just a date that - an opportunity.
RUSSO We don’t wanna deprive you of that opportunity.
KEYES (Chuckles). I don’t even get to go.
RUSSO But if you don’t want that opportunity…
KEYES If I got to go there, yeah, lets do it.
RUSSO Well I mean it’s - it’s clear just…
RUSSO It sounds like obviously you don’t want any mitigation present in the KOENIG case. Correct?
KEYES I’m not interested in any dates in the KOENIG case. Anything added to it that’s gonna complicate it. Whatever you have to do to fricking get it moved along, do it.
RUSSO Mm-hm. All right, well I’ll talk to Capital Crimes and pass along your views on it as long as - as well as the view of you’d like to be heard on it, I don’t know, is that true?
KEYES Yeah. No I - if there’s - if - if there’s some sort of mitigation that’s set up I definitely wanna be part of it ‘cause that means I didn’t know about it.
RUSSO Okay. So I don’t know what - if there’s a procedure for that, maybe there is I’m not sure. But, um, I - I can ask them about that and view towards moving that forward but, um, in the mean time I think we can explore the global settlement. You’re talking about the one initially when I wrote that letter RICH on, uh, July 16 right?
CURTNER Well I would - personally I would make a - an - a counter proposal along those lines but I need…
RUSSO Yeah - yeah.
CURTNER …to talk to (unintelligible).
RUSSO No I understand. And then I incorporated, you know, a little more concrete deals and there’s about 20 which you have…
KEYES The what?
RUSSO The, um, the July 16 letter on the global settlement. Um, it’s a…
RUSSO I take it you hadn’t - hadn’t seen that before or?
RUSSO I think that was written before the stuff in Vermont broke. That was July 16.
KEYES Well it makes a lot more sense to do it in the KOENIG case than in the CURRIER case.
RUSSO Mm-hm, yeah, that was written on the, yeah, I think that was like a Thursday or Friday - July 16.
GOEDEN I think so.
RUSSO So then - and then Monday they told me that the FBI was gonna stop their dig and then that’s when I wrote you the other thing on the 20th.
KEYES Well my email’s been down so.
RUSSO Yeah, well you gotta check it more often.
RUSSO Um, all right. Any other questions ISRAEL while we’re all here?
BELL Any idea…
BELL Any time frame you’d like to see met here? For our next meeting?
KEYES I don’t know. I gotta figure out what to do about this - this isn’t working.
CURTNER Let’s talk about it. I’ll come over this afternoon and talk about it.
KEYES This is not working.
RUSSO In terms of what? Like there’s something we’re doing or? I mean I’m trying to figure out to make sure…
KEYES Well just - just everything (chuckles).
CURTNER You taking him back now?
BELL When he’s ready.
RUSSO I’m gonna grab you that, uh, water.
BELL You ready ISRAEL to return? Go back?
KEYES Yeah, I guess. I don’t know.
CURTNER Okay, I’ll be over this afternoon all right?
KEYES All right.
BELL Give us a minute here and then we’ll get you a key. Are people around to (unintelligible) need to take a leak or anything before we head back?
KEYES No I’m good.